3 ms·

> and the postal workers refuse to deliver anything to tesla (which seems a bit crazy considering there are laws about using the postal services). It's not cra

by piva00 3y ago

> and the postal workers refuse to deliver anything to tesla (which seems a bit crazy considering there are laws about using the postal services). It's not crazy when you understand the Swedish model: labour laws are minimal, setting just a very basic framework which is then taken to employers + employees negotiations to set the other terms of employment for an industry, in that it's a pretty free labour market. The counterpoint is that it's required that employers and employees collaborate to set the minimum arrangements for employment. Tesla is refusing to abide by this model, in the Swedish model sympathy strikes are legal since that's one way that employees from other industries can support other workers in their struggles, the employees of PostNord decided to take sympathy action against Tesla for what they consider an attack to the whole model of employment and labour in the nation. What is crazy is a company trying to subjugate a whole nation's system of employment for their own benefit, for that Tesla is being collectively punished by workers in other industries for trying to undermine the labour market as a whole.

jjgreen 3y ago
Interesting to compare the Swedish model to the UK's. Here, employers can do whatever they like, unions need a full postal ballot to fart.
Pungsnigel 3y ago
Lots of companies work without collective agreements in Sweden though. Under law it's completely free if you want to do so or not. You could as well say that the unions are threatening the Swedish model due to taking this to such extreme levels. Especially as it doesn't seem most employees at Tesla want the unions involved.
- piva00 3y ago
  They do while conditions are ok, it seems like conditions are not ok for these workers hence they pushing for a CBA. And while lots of companies work without a CBA here in Sweden, 90% of employees are covered by CBAs, so the vast majority are covered by one and Tesla fighting this by bringing scabs (a huge, huge no-no in here) is quite stupid. If they thought a CBA would be bad for business then strikes are even worse, it's their choice now to sign one or not with all the costs associated on not having one.
  - Pungsnigel 3y ago
    Most employees don't seem to be in support of the unions at this point though? It's a bit hard to tell as there are no official numbers, but from what I've seen it seems like ~90% or so of employees at Tesla remain at work. And there is a high demand for their services, so they could easily go to other companies for work if conditions are bad.
    - Hikikomori 3y ago
      Not all workers have joined the union and wouldn't get paid by the union to strike. But unions use sympathy strikes against companies that might retaliate against their workers if they strike, Tesla has already made threats. So going by how many of the workers at Tesla are striking or not is not a good measurement.
      - bjornsing 3y ago
        The union is offering free memberships and 130% of normal pay. Tesla employees still don’t want to strike [1]. This is why the unions are using these extreme tactics. 1. https://teknikensvarld.expressen.se/nyheter/bilbranschen/tesla-bilar-levereras-till-sverige-trots-hamnblockad/ https://teknikensvarld.expressen.se/nyheter/bilbranschen/tes...
        Hikikomori 3y ago
        Tesla threatened to remove their stocks if they strikes so not surprised as it's supposedly a large part of their compensation.
        lupusreal 3y ago
        [dead]
- Stranger43 3y ago
  The way unions work in scandinavia is that they are decentralized but supportive of each other. IE as long as the workers don't form an local chapter everything is fine the problem if that when such a chapter forms and the company ignores it every other union chapter is allowed to refuse to deliver work in support of an company that choose to refuse/fight unionization. So for there to be an conflict there have to be an meaningful chapter formed within tesla's employee base that tesla refuses to acknowledge. Now again remember that this system is core to the "flexsecurity" systems employed by all of the nordic countries which is generally based on fair negotiations between equal parties(union and company) if Tesla manage to break that model they force the bureaucracy and state to take over and set highly rules without any concerns for local details they way it typically happens in France which is going to hit their profitability far harder then allowing unionization.
  - ekianjo 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - ceejayoz 3y ago
      Well, except for the "legal, encouraged, and part of the social compact" bit.
    - salawat 3y ago
      So much "Network effects for me, but not for thee" vibes in this thread. Lets be clear. The VC streak on this forum would viciously exploit any opportunity to wrest every cent out of any even ambiguously quasi-legal network-effect-if-you-look-hard-enough. I personally get great amusement in seeing the shoe on the other foot for once. Rock on, Nordic fellows!
  - soco 3y ago
    I work for a US company and I can tell that US management doesn't give a rat's ass on local customs until it bites them. You can raise and escalate and whatnot, they will still push the locals to implement the illegal/unacceptable stuff if not immediately then boiling the frog - anything goes until some agency or legal suit says whoa stop.
throw310822 3y ago
What I don't get is: a strike is a protest in which workers refuse to work but also pay by renouncing their salary for the days they didn't work. If post employees selectively decide to not deliver to a specific client or address, what cost are they sustaining? Is their salary impacted?
- defrost 3y ago
  Nordic unions underwrite the cost of strike action and pay workers any lost wages that result. There's a statement by IF Metals (the central metalworking union whose ~130 odd members are being refused a collective agreement by Tesla) that they'll support their workers through this. I would image that postal and dockworkers see similar support from their unions (although they are working on every item save those that go to/fro Tesla and are not affected to the same degree).
kmlx 3y ago
> It's not crazy when you understand the Swedish model the only thing i’m questioning is the idea that the postal company is allowed to not deliver mail. it just looks very wrong to me.
- xhubin 3y ago
  Think of it this way instead, the people working there have their own rights to refuse to do so. They the people aren't "Postnord" the company, they are individuals who are free to act on their own, they aren't slaves to their company.
  - kmlx 3y ago
    valid point, but at the same time people should be free to resign and employers should be free to fire their employees.
- pw378 3y ago
  Striking is one thing, but targeting an individual company is another. They are not striking, they are selectively denying a critical service to force submission. It is not hard to imagine scenarios where this is weaponized with horrifying outcomes.
  - InCityDreams 3y ago
    "It is not hard to imagine scenarios where this is weaponized with horrifying outcomes." Well, it is for me to imagine - could you expand on "horrifying"? The Mirriam W definitions don't seem to make sense when used in your particular context.
    - codersfocus 3y ago
      “I’m a fireman. I don’t like you, so I’ll stand here while the fire burns you and your house.”
      - 3y ago

by piva00 3y ago

jjgreen 3y ago

Interesting to compare the Swedish model to the UK's. Here, employers can do whatever they like, unions need a full postal ballot to fart.

Pungsnigel 3y ago

Lots of companies work without collective agreements in Sweden though. Under law it's completely free if you want to do so or not. You could as well say that the unions are threatening the Swedish model due to taking this to such extreme levels. Especially as it doesn't seem most employees at Tesla want the unions involved.

piva00 3y ago
They do while conditions are ok, it seems like conditions are not ok for these workers hence they pushing for a CBA. And while lots of companies work without a CBA here in Sweden, 90% of employees are covered by CBAs, so the vast majority are covered by one and Tesla fighting this by bringing scabs (a huge, huge no-no in here) is quite stupid. If they thought a CBA would be bad for business then strikes are even worse, it's their choice now to sign one or not with all the costs associated on not having one.
- Pungsnigel 3y ago
  Most employees don't seem to be in support of the unions at this point though? It's a bit hard to tell as there are no official numbers, but from what I've seen it seems like ~90% or so of employees at Tesla remain at work. And there is a high demand for their services, so they could easily go to other companies for work if conditions are bad.
  - Hikikomori 3y ago
    Not all workers have joined the union and wouldn't get paid by the union to strike. But unions use sympathy strikes against companies that might retaliate against their workers if they strike, Tesla has already made threats. So going by how many of the workers at Tesla are striking or not is not a good measurement.
    - bjornsing 3y ago
      The union is offering free memberships and 130% of normal pay. Tesla employees still don’t want to strike [1]. This is why the unions are using these extreme tactics. 1. https://teknikensvarld.expressen.se/nyheter/bilbranschen/tesla-bilar-levereras-till-sverige-trots-hamnblockad/ https://teknikensvarld.expressen.se/nyheter/bilbranschen/tes...
      - Hikikomori 3y ago
        Tesla threatened to remove their stocks if they strikes so not surprised as it's supposedly a large part of their compensation.
        lupusreal 3y ago
        [dead]
Stranger43 3y ago
The way unions work in scandinavia is that they are decentralized but supportive of each other. IE as long as the workers don't form an local chapter everything is fine the problem if that when such a chapter forms and the company ignores it every other union chapter is allowed to refuse to deliver work in support of an company that choose to refuse/fight unionization. So for there to be an conflict there have to be an meaningful chapter formed within tesla's employee base that tesla refuses to acknowledge. Now again remember that this system is core to the "flexsecurity" systems employed by all of the nordic countries which is generally based on fair negotiations between equal parties(union and company) if Tesla manage to break that model they force the bureaucracy and state to take over and set highly rules without any concerns for local details they way it typically happens in France which is going to hit their profitability far harder then allowing unionization.
- ekianjo 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    Well, except for the "legal, encouraged, and part of the social compact" bit.
  - salawat 3y ago
    So much "Network effects for me, but not for thee" vibes in this thread. Lets be clear. The VC streak on this forum would viciously exploit any opportunity to wrest every cent out of any even ambiguously quasi-legal network-effect-if-you-look-hard-enough. I personally get great amusement in seeing the shoe on the other foot for once. Rock on, Nordic fellows!
- soco 3y ago
  I work for a US company and I can tell that US management doesn't give a rat's ass on local customs until it bites them. You can raise and escalate and whatnot, they will still push the locals to implement the illegal/unacceptable stuff if not immediately then boiling the frog - anything goes until some agency or legal suit says whoa stop.

throw310822 3y ago

What I don't get is: a strike is a protest in which workers refuse to work but also pay by renouncing their salary for the days they didn't work. If post employees selectively decide to not deliver to a specific client or address, what cost are they sustaining? Is their salary impacted?

defrost 3y ago
Nordic unions underwrite the cost of strike action and pay workers any lost wages that result. There's a statement by IF Metals (the central metalworking union whose ~130 odd members are being refused a collective agreement by Tesla) that they'll support their workers through this. I would image that postal and dockworkers see similar support from their unions (although they are working on every item save those that go to/fro Tesla and are not affected to the same degree).

kmlx 3y ago

> It's not crazy when you understand the Swedish model the only thing i’m questioning is the idea that the postal company is allowed to not deliver mail. it just looks very wrong to me.

xhubin 3y ago
Think of it this way instead, the people working there have their own rights to refuse to do so. They the people aren't "Postnord" the company, they are individuals who are free to act on their own, they aren't slaves to their company.
- kmlx 3y ago
  valid point, but at the same time people should be free to resign and employers should be free to fire their employees.
pw378 3y ago
Striking is one thing, but targeting an individual company is another. They are not striking, they are selectively denying a critical service to force submission. It is not hard to imagine scenarios where this is weaponized with horrifying outcomes.
- InCityDreams 3y ago
  "It is not hard to imagine scenarios where this is weaponized with horrifying outcomes." Well, it is for me to imagine - could you expand on "horrifying"? The Mirriam W definitions don't seem to make sense when used in your particular context.
  - codersfocus 3y ago
    “I’m a fireman. I don’t like you, so I’ll stand here while the fire burns you and your house.”
    - 3y ago