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I was in Paris in July, and was thoroughly impressed with the metro system. I always had an impression that Paris was a dirty city by western-european standards
by pkd 3y ago
I was in Paris in July, and was thoroughly impressed with the metro system. I always had an impression that Paris was a dirty city by western-european standards but I actually found the metro stations incredibly clean (and I travelled on multiple lines and through hub stations like Chatelet). In comparison, my city, Ottawa, has struggled to get one line functioning reliably in almost five years of trying, and the stations are filthy by comparison.
- ilrwbwrkhv 3y agoThat's just a Canadian problem. Canada is the most overrated of all the developed countries and once you travel you realize that even some developing countries are now better than that. The smugness and the sense of superiority they have at not being the US is delusional.
- durumu 3y agoThe US is like this too. Almost no American cities have reliable public transit, and even in those that do, like NYC or Chicago, the stations are pretty filthy in my experience. Also, I feel like this is an unusually hostile comment.
- brailsafe 3y agoNot just hostile, but an ironically delusional comment considering what you're correct in stating about the U.S, but also that Ottawa is a newsworthy exception among cities in Canada with municipal trains, save for perhaps the first week after Montreal's recent build. To anyone who's "started travelling" (how smug), they'd realize that Vancouver, Toronto, and Montreal, maybe even Calgary and Edmonton to lesser extents have viable or great municipal train systems. They aren't Tokyo great, or Paris great, but they are pretty good and usually clean. Among developed countries, I can think of a few that since visiting, while novel, I've actively chose Vancouver over; other cities in Canada would probably not win out, but that's why broad statements about countries shouldn't be taken seriously.
- ClimaxGravely 3y agoDefinitely. I live in Vancouver and it's quite good for North America. There's also a decent amount of anti-public transit people here that tend to make their job a bit harder. I live in a part of town where almost everyone except me drives and I remember chatting to my neighbors when we had a transit funding referendum. The details are a bit hazy because I think it was around 2016 but in my area people were more or less unanimous when it came to preventing public transit funding. I do have a few personal gripes about the new skytrain line being full at rush hour but for what it's worth I had the same issue with the main circle line in Tokyo. Rush-hour is rush-hour no matter what your method of transport.
- brailsafe 3y agoAgreed on all fronts. Those Tokyo lines are insane at rush hour, and almost dead silent at every other time; it's kind of the nature of homogenous commute types, it's just hella more efficient to do it with trains than anything else we have. Thankfully, the new subway extension should help distribute people a little more evenly, and I believe TransLink is looking start running longer trains, which should provide a little more capacity at peak times.
- easton 3y agoI will say DC’s are pretty clean by US standards, although I might be biased living there. They have lots of cleaning staff.
- nukeman 3y agoDC has an advantage in newness and in materials selection (tiny tiles with lots of grout looks cool for 5 minutes), as well as having relatively fewer station layouts. t. former NoVa resident
- euroderf 3y agoPutting station walls behind handrails, out of reach of graffiti "artistes", also helps.
- eastbound 3y agoCoping mechanisms always astonish me. No, it is not normal to lose function (passengers/square feet) over uncivil behavior.
- foldr 3y agoThe DC metro stations are very spacious. Been a long while since I lived in DC but they weren't crowded compared to stations in NYC or London.
- bobthepanda 3y agoIt was specifically a Great Society program meant to contrast with Soviet metros and their ornate architecture. NYC and London have the issue where they were first generation systems trying to figure out what worked and what did not. DC’s general height limits in conjunction with typical American SFH friendly zoning also do not help utilization.
- rayiner 3y agoThat’s america in a nutshell. We can’t infringe on people’s precious individual expression and self actualization after all. That said in the DC system, expense was traded off in favor of cleanliness and lack of crowding—the stations are enormous (and very costly).
- aylmao 3y agoIt isn't just a "Canadian" problem. You see that all over the USA too. Also, why the hostility? I've never met a Canadian that expressed a sense superiority about not being part of the USA. I've met plenty who are proud of their national identity, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's quite admirable too, in my opinion. Nation-building isn't easy.
- abid786 3y agoI am not the parent but the comment does have some merit (and I say this as a Canadian). For a lot of things we simply gloat that we’re better than the US and then end up thinking that our work is done. Classic case is health care (‘look, we spend less than the US and have free healthcare’) where instead of looking up to countries with better healthcare outcomes than us, we look down on America and act smug. Other cases include our climate record, and post secondary education.
- Xerox9213 3y agoI am yet to meet a fellow Canadian who hasn’t complained about our health care system. It seems to be one of the main discussions around provincial elections.
- throwaway2037 3y agoThis sounds like the UK NHS. The solution is simple (economically), but difficult politically: more money.
- rchaud 3y ago> Classic case is health care (‘look, we spend less than the US and have free healthcare’) Who is saying this, other than low-information Americans on social media hung up on the word 'free'? Every Canadian knows that the reality is much more complicated with capacity shortages since Covid, and an opportunistic provincial government in Ontario doing its very best to push further privatization.
- refurb 3y ago
- petesergeant 3y ago> The smugness and the sense of superiority they have at not being the US is delusional. I’ve seen this a few times, only on HN, so it’s either a particular HN meme, or it’s you posting it every so often
- rchaud 3y agoI haven't even seen it on HN; frankly every Canadian on here seems to lament the difference in tech role compensation between the two countries. Outside of HN, I haven't even heard this smugness since the early years of the invasion of Iraq.
- egiboy 3y agoAs a newly-minted Canadian I've noticed that as well. I moved to Toronto from Istanbul five years ago and while I was away, Istanbul added 75 kilometers to its metro. That's longer than the entire Toronto Subway. All this talk about being a world-class city, while nobody knows when Eglinton Crosstown, a "subway" line using streetcar ("LRT") tech that's been "in progress" since 2011, will open. Don't even get me started on SmartTrack :)
- rchaud 3y agoThe term "World class city" is meaningless to people who aren't politicians or consultants pitching to the International Olympic Committee. NYC and Chicago are dream cities for many, some Torontonians included. Does that mean that their transit stations aren't teeming with capybara-size rats? That they don't have problems with homelessness and poverty? And I say this as someone who lives in the 'burbs and is upset that the LRT delays have continued as long as they have.
- lhomdee 3y agoI was in Montreal recently and the metro is one of the nicest I’ve used. It was on time, reliable and well designed. The stations are all architecturally interesting, and some of them even “beautiful”. The trains are very comfortable and unlike most metro’s, the lighting is soft and doesn’t overwhelm your senses when taking at night. Also for anyone interested in trains, the rubber tires on an interesting touch, albeit limiting if they wanted to expand the metro above ground.
- j-a-a-p 3y agoBashing Canada is like hitting Mickey in Disneyworld. Having said that, just google 'an honorary member of the Third World' to find the answer is (was actually) Canada.
- baud147258 3y agomaybe you went on different lines that the ones I'm using, but I never found the most of the stations clean. Or it's just still better than what you're used to (I don't have much experience with subway in other cities)
- pkd 3y agoI certainly did not take all of the lines and did not alight at all stations I crossed, but I was still prepared for much worse! To provide a point of comparison - the busiest stations in Ottawa all smell of urine almost all the time and they see much less traffic than their counterparts in Paris. It is in some ways a uniquely Ottawa problem but it was still nice to use the Paris metro to travel in the city. Vienna metro was even cleaner and slightly less sketchy than Paris, but that is also not a fair comparison in terms of size and demographics. The Delhi metro is almost equally impressive as Paris's in convenience but feels about as clean as Ottawa.
- throwaway2037 3y agoFor anyone interested to learn about the nighly cleaning routine for the Delhi metro, I strongly recommend to Google something like this: Why is the Delhi Metro clean? Most Indians gush at the cleanliness of the Delhi metro. It is a world ahead of most average India Rail cars and stations. (I'm not speaking of long distance, upper class cars. Those are amazing, but ridiculously expensive.)
- zoltrix303 3y agoI spent almost 7 years in Paris, now 6 months in Tokyo. The metro in Paris can't even be compared in terms of cleanliness.
- throwaway2037 3y agoThe old Marunouchi and Mita trains used to be pretty dirty (by Tokyo standards!), but both have been upgraded in the last five years. The classic "oyaji smell" is gone from both trains now.
- ekianjo 3y agoThe Paris metro is a miserable experience when you compare to what you have in Tokyo.
- pkd 3y agoI can believe that - hoping to experience it first hand in the near future. Still, was impressed by Paris in general (or at least, was more impressed than I expected to be!)
- ekianjo 3y agoAlways go to France with low expectations. Makes for a better experience.
- DiscourseFan 3y agoThis is a bit of an exaggeration. The Paris metro is about as fast as the Tokyo metro, its just that the Tokyo metro is a larger and denser system, since it is serving a larger and denser city.
- ekianjo 3y agoThe tokyo metro is much cleaner and does not smell like piss, has none of the homeless population living in and you can be safe in day and night. Only a blind person with a blocked nose could pretend its about the same.
- yreg 3y agoTokyo metro has its drawbacks as well, namely, I found the stations rather difficult to navigate for foreigners. Of course this being Japan there are many nice people eager to help everywhere, but (again of course) they don’t speak english.
- ekianjo 3y agoTokyo has signs in English everywhere. It is difficult to navigate the first time you are looking for a connection but after a few days you get used to how things work and how to find your way. There are also tons of apps you can use to help you.
- sn9 3y agoI was in Paris a year ago and the metro was such a joy to use. Way easier than the subway in NYC, cleaner, and the people watching was a nice bonus.
- wildrhythms 3y agoI disagree that it's easier than the NYC subway. The 'zone' system is complicated for tourists who aren't used to dealing with that. Contrast to NYC subway where it's $2.90 (formerly $2.75) to walk thru the turnstile and go anywhere. It seems like Paris is adopting a similar model which is nice to see. NYC also has nearly 170 more stations than Paris.
- dopidopHN 3y agoWhat is hard to use about it ? The machine or the teller will give you the proper ticket. Plan highlighting the zone are in every stations and cars. ( on top of the doors ) Not living there anymore but I think those zone are on the way out anyway. They make it more expensive for folks with less income.
- mplewis 3y agoGet the NFC card and you can refill it on your phone. Super easy to use.
- sn9 3y agoI was actually comparing both through the viewpoint of a tourist. Paris was far and away easier to navigate, even though I don't even speak French.
- EdwardDiego 3y agoBrussels metro was far filthier than Paris in my limited experience.
- TacticalCoder 3y agoSadly saying that doesn't mean much for the level of filth in the Paris metro (Brussels is my native city but I thankfully left that shithole).
- maxglute 3y agoDid they clean up? When I was there a few years ago, most heavy traffic stations were full of litter and frequently smelled like piss.
- armadsen 3y agoI was there in 2014 and was struck by how gross the metro stations in Paris were. I was there again this month (got home yesterday) and was struck by how much cleaner and nicer the stations seemed. I assumed (with no information) that they’ve been cleaning them up in advance of the Olympics. In any case, my experience this time was quite good. Certainly way better than the NYC subway (still not as good as Tokyo).
- rchaud 3y agoIf there was a labour strike, then obviously people would not be cleaning up. In Italy, waste management workers were on strike for part of 2023, leaving the capital Rome with piles of trash on the sidewalks for long periods of time.
- mplewis 3y agoThe stations are orders of magnitude cleaner than they were years ago. Stations that smell like urine are now the minority.
- uxp8u61q 3y agoThe idea that Paris is a particularly dirty city is spread by far right groups to fuel racism. I've traveled to many large cities / capitals and Paris is at worst average. Exceptions like Tokyo (that everyone loves to parrot when the subject comes up) are precisely that, exceptions.
- guil177 3y agoIt is funny to call fueling racism when saying Paris is particulatly dirty while at the same time admitting it cannot be compared to city like tokyo. Because I guess if compared then it would look particularly dirty. By the way seoul is also way cleaner than Paris, I believe Singapore too.
- pokepim 3y ago[dead]
- phs318u 3y agoHaving been to Tokyo, Singapore and Seoul, I can categorically say that Seoul is not in the same league as the other two. Having said that, all three are far and away cleaner than my city of Melbourne, Australia, which has taken an absolute dive in the last 15 years (I've been studying and working in the CBD for 40 years).
- KptMarchewa 3y agoSeoul has the problem of regular sewage smell overall.
- throwaway2037 3y agoHoly crap -- I have posted so many times today and I forget to mention Singapore (and Hongkong). Hat tip to you, sir/madam. Singapore's subway is very clean. In my experience, the total system load is way higher in Hongkong, but they do a tremendous job keeping it clean.
- hiAndrewQuinn 3y agoI work in rail software. One reason NA is moving slower than expected is software standards. No, really. Europe does rail pretty well, all things considered. Well enough that companies (like mine) eventually get subcontracted to build things for the North American market as well. Problem is, rail is a highly regulated industry, which means lots of mandatory software documentation. European countries all use the EN documentation standards. The US and Canada tend to use the IEEE-1558 and its ilk. Neither document is a subset of the other; there exists no easy list of differences between the two standards to allow compatibility. So the actual software development goes pretty smoothly -- then someone realizes there's no standard-conforming documentation and the whole project grinds to a halt. Often for years, because the number of people who are fluent in writing docs for/translating docs between both standards in any given country, you can count on one hand. I am rumored to be one of them.
- 414techie 3y agoIs this something that could be automated?
- hiAndrewQuinn 3y agoMaybe with a substantial investment into ML. I'm looking into this possibility myself, with a Django backend and a zillion possible fields to fill out.
- bobthepanda 3y agoThere’s also the other way around it, which is just allowing both regulatory regimes. The FRA basically just did this for European rail vehicle standards, which are different than US ones significantly. The issue is that the US market is generally too thin to support US-specific passenger rail manufacturers who would happily comply.
- hiAndrewQuinn 3y agoReally! I could use a link if you have one.
- peoplefromibiza 3y ago> I actually found the metro stations incredibly clean it depends on the time of the day and the standards you're used to. I am from Rome, not the cleanest city in the World I might say, but I used to go to Paris frequently, my ex girlfriend lived there for 10 years and I found Paris a terrible patchwork of "looking clean, but not really clean", "smelly and not in a good way" and "rats on the streets of the center not scared at all by the people" together with "there are actually people living in the catacombs below the building I'm currently living in and we can't do anything about it" We both were victims of robbery a few times and attempted robbery several times (one time I put my hand in the pocket of my jacket and shacked hands with a burglar that was looking for something to steal) in the metro stations, so we usually were very worried when we had to get one, we ended up walking a lot to avoid the stress, which ironically turned out to be a great idea, if there's something good I can totally agree about Paris is that it is one of the best cities to take a long walk. I assume that this is an advertising piece to promote the newfound cleanliness for the upcoming Olympic games in the city, it's happening the same in Rome for the 2025 Jubilee.
- amelius 3y ago> (...) I actually found the metro stations incredibly clean They didn't tell you this: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/29/bedbug-crisis-political-row-paris-insect-scourge-continues https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/29/bedbug-crisis-...
- rayiner 3y agoWhen I was there in 2008, Paris was filthy by western standards. But oddly the Metro system was cleaner than NYC (though NYC is also filthy by western standards).
- nostromo 3y agoI’m struggling to think of any metro that’s more filthy than New York’s, so I’m not sure that’s saying much.
- throwaway2037 3y agoHow about Berlin's S-Bahn and U-Bahn? I was really impressed when I travelled there on holiday. Very clean, punctual, and frequent. The stations are pretty old, but well maintained, and the train cars were reasonably new and clean.
- j-a-a-p 3y agoI respect the 40B investment by Paris, but also mentionable is that city by car is very doable. It almost felt like a secret treat we had this rainy summer holiday - no congestions and we could park side of street at all the hot spots paying with one of the parking apps.
- Unfrozen0688 3y agoCompare to Stockholm... Paris will be "dirty", as ofc there is way more people. But still. But yes if you come from Canada or USA, Paris will look amazing to you.