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Those must have been soft hammers. Titanium isn't magic. It's neither as hard, nor as strong, as steel. It's a lot lighter, which makes it a wonder material in

Those must have been soft hammers. Titanium isn't magic. It's neither as hard, nor as strong, as steel. It's a lot lighter, which makes it a wonder material in certain applications that can take advantage of it's excellent strength-to-weight ratio. But if max hardness, or strength at a given size, is what you are after, without a weight constraint, steel wins.

saberience 3y ago
I mean, I'm no materials scientist but one google tells me that Titanium is AS strong as steel but much less dense. I just browsed through the top 10 Google results and everyone states that titanium is roughly equal to steel in strength but with various other benefits. So your comment is definitely off-base somewhere, you make it seem like steel is much stronger, which clearly isn't the case.
- AlotOfReading 3y ago
  Steel's strength varies by orders of magnitude depending on the alloy and heat treatment. It's an incredibly flexible family of materials. Some members of that family are far stronger than anything in the titanium family, e.g. 4340 steel has a nominal yield strength of >1800 MPa, compared to <1300 MPa for Ti 10-2-3.
  - saberience 3y ago
    We're not talking about exotic and expensive varieties of steel though. We're just talking about "general" or common steel and comparing it to unalloyed "common"/"general" titanium. Remember, Steel is itself an alloy, Titanium is an element. If you start comparing Titanium alloys to Steel then the comparison gets even harder. Titanium alloys are in general stronger than steel as well as much lighter and more corrosion resistant.
    - petertodd 3y ago
      > We're not talking about exotic and expensive varieties of steel though. 4340 steel isn't exotic. It's one of the most commonly used grades of steel out there, and it's much cheaper than titanium. There are steels out there with significant stronger yield strengths too. Meanwhile the highest yield strength of any Ti alloy is <1300MPa. Titanium is still a really great material in certain applications. But it's not magic. You have to use it intelligently in the right application to get a benefit from it.
      - bch 3y ago
        The family of materials we call steel is so fantastic, it almost a shame it’s so ubiquitous that we take it for granted. If it were invented today the front page of HN would be loaded with stories of this miracle material.
        panick21_ 3y ago
        The newest generation most advanced spaceships are made from steel, see Starship. When you go to both maximum cold (cryo fuel), and you go to maximum (reentry heat) then steel is amazing. Aluminum would turn to butter on reentry, it would require a massive amount of heat shielding. Titanium alloys would have same issue. Titanium alloy also become to brittle in deep cryo. So steel beats everything in this demanding application. Its amazing.
    - MeImCounting 3y ago
      Pure elemental titanium has much less desirable material properties than various titanium alloys which are what you encounter most commonly. It is very uncommon to encounter elemental titanium outside of a chemistry lab.
      - metal_am 3y ago
        Grade 1 is still pretty common for ultralight backpacking items like pots and pans due to its ductility.
        MeImCounting 3y ago
        Thats cool! I didnt know there were specific common applications where grade 1 would be desirable compared to the stronger alloys available.
        scythe 3y ago
        IIRC you can buy titanium foil that you can just make stuff out of at home.
        blincoln 3y ago
        I have some titanium crafting wire. Should be easy to find on Amazon or similar. It's a little surreal - looks similar to a roll of steel wire, but feels as lightweight as PLA. Basically the real-world version of mithril.
    - cwillu 3y ago
      So called “mild steel” would be far more accurately called “iron”, the carbon content is insignificant.
      - dreamcompiler 3y ago
        The carbon content of mild steel is low but not insignificant. Pure wrought iron [0] is a dream to forge and it has a huge grain structure. It's more ductile than mild steel but it's also not as hardenable or tough as mild steel [1]. That little bit of carbon in mild steel makes a big difference. [0] I mean real wrought iron -- the almost 100% elemental stuff -- like the Eiffel tower is made of. This is practically unobtainable today. The "wrought iron" you commonly see for sale nowadays is always mild steel. And "cast iron" is actually very high carbon steel, not iron. Cast iron so high in carbon that it's brittle and cannot be forged or easily welded. [1] It's a myth that mild steel cannot be hardened. With a proper wetting agent added to the quench, you can harden it significantly.
        jacquesm 3y ago
        Wrought iron and mild steel are more or less functionally equivalent. One other reason why cast iron is so brittle is because it contains quite a bit of silicon.
    - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
      > We're not talking about exotic and expensive... > "general" or common steel and "common"/"general" titanium Why would you compare 'trash-quality' steel vs exotic and expensive material like Titanium? That does not make any sence.
  - rowanG077 3y ago
    There are definitely steels that lose out to grade 5 Titanium. There are also steels that beat all Titanium grades. It's not so simple to say steel is stronger then Titanium. Some steels are stronger then titanium. Some Titanium grades are stronger then Some steels.
  - scythe 3y ago
    Wikipedia: >4340 steel is an ultra-high strength steel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4340_steel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4340_steel The alloy composition calls for 0.2-0.3% molybdenum and expects accuracy to within a few per mille for ten elements. Moly is considered so important that there are entire towns in the United States established to mine it to secure the military supply chain.
    - justinator 3y ago
      Is this true? From the Wikipedia article, the two mines that produce molybdenum as the main product are the two in CO, Henderson and Climax. They have no towns associated with them. Climax is near Leadville, but Leadville existed as a mining town before molybdenum was being mined at any scale. The other mine isn't close to any town that has more than a trailer park of people. The others mine molybdenum as a byproduct of copper. I guess you could say the Bagdad mine has a company town, but it wasn't made to secure the military supply chain 140 year ago.
- petertodd 3y ago
  Read this for starters: https://www.thomasnet.com/articles/metals-metal-products/steel-vs-titanium-strength-properties-and-uses/ https://www.thomasnet.com/articles/metals-metal-products/ste... "When comparing the tensile yield strengths of titanium and steel, an interesting fact occurs; steel is by-and-large stronger than titanium." Many people confuse this issue, because they're actually talking about measures of strength/weight ratios, on which titanium does really well. But if you are size limited rather than weight limited, steel is often a better material than titanium even when cost is no object.
  - saberience 3y ago
    Every source says that titanium is as strong as the most commonly used steel. Sure if you're going for lesser used alloys of steel you may as well compare to lesser used alloys of titanium. Or just compare iron with titanium, as that's really comparing one element with another, and is the "fair" comparison. And anyway, your original comment suggested someone was totally in the wrong for thinking a 4mm titanium plate was strong, which is obviously incorrect. 4mmm of titanium plate is clearly going to be really strong and resistant. They wouldn't make plane engines from it if it wasn't.
    - petertodd 3y ago
      > They wouldn't make plane engines from it if it wasn't. ...but they don't! Jet engines can only use titanium for certain low pressure, low temperature, sections. The high temperature parts are made from nickle/iron-based superalloys. And aluminum still gets significant usage, because for many geometries an aluminum part has a better strength/weight ratio. Like I said, titanium is strong. But it's not magic. Stronger than any aluminum alloy, weaker than commonly used steel alloys. Hitting a 4mm plate of titanium with a hammer just isn't a very special experience. I've done it. Hitting a 4mm tool steel plate definitely can be a special experience. Because it's so strong and hard that you could easily cause the thing to shatter, sending sharp shards in unpredictable directions...
    - MeImCounting 3y ago
      No the parent is correct. Steel is by and large stronger than titanium of the same size. Pray tell what is this "most commonly used alloy of steel"? Because just fyi different steel alloys are used for different applications just like different titanium alloys are also used for different applications. Titanium has excellent strength to weight properties compared to steel. A 4mm titanium plate would absolutely be dented by common shop hammers. This doesnt mean that "titanium isnt strong" it just means they have different material properties.
robotomir 3y ago
I had a titanium Tissot watch and it scratched easier than steel watches.
- mkii 3y ago
  Yep, I have a couple titanium watches too. I find that the scratches picked up every here and there adds to the "character" of the piece. Like it's living life with me.

saberience 3y ago

I mean, I'm no materials scientist but one google tells me that Titanium is AS strong as steel but much less dense. I just browsed through the top 10 Google results and everyone states that titanium is roughly equal to steel in strength but with various other benefits. So your comment is definitely off-base somewhere, you make it seem like steel is much stronger, which clearly isn't the case.

AlotOfReading 3y ago
Steel's strength varies by orders of magnitude depending on the alloy and heat treatment. It's an incredibly flexible family of materials. Some members of that family are far stronger than anything in the titanium family, e.g. 4340 steel has a nominal yield strength of >1800 MPa, compared to <1300 MPa for Ti 10-2-3.
- saberience 3y ago
  We're not talking about exotic and expensive varieties of steel though. We're just talking about "general" or common steel and comparing it to unalloyed "common"/"general" titanium. Remember, Steel is itself an alloy, Titanium is an element. If you start comparing Titanium alloys to Steel then the comparison gets even harder. Titanium alloys are in general stronger than steel as well as much lighter and more corrosion resistant.
  - petertodd 3y ago
    > We're not talking about exotic and expensive varieties of steel though. 4340 steel isn't exotic. It's one of the most commonly used grades of steel out there, and it's much cheaper than titanium. There are steels out there with significant stronger yield strengths too. Meanwhile the highest yield strength of any Ti alloy is <1300MPa. Titanium is still a really great material in certain applications. But it's not magic. You have to use it intelligently in the right application to get a benefit from it.
    - bch 3y ago
      The family of materials we call steel is so fantastic, it almost a shame it’s so ubiquitous that we take it for granted. If it were invented today the front page of HN would be loaded with stories of this miracle material.
      - panick21_ 3y ago
        The newest generation most advanced spaceships are made from steel, see Starship. When you go to both maximum cold (cryo fuel), and you go to maximum (reentry heat) then steel is amazing. Aluminum would turn to butter on reentry, it would require a massive amount of heat shielding. Titanium alloys would have same issue. Titanium alloy also become to brittle in deep cryo. So steel beats everything in this demanding application. Its amazing.
  - MeImCounting 3y ago
    Pure elemental titanium has much less desirable material properties than various titanium alloys which are what you encounter most commonly. It is very uncommon to encounter elemental titanium outside of a chemistry lab.
    - metal_am 3y ago
      Grade 1 is still pretty common for ultralight backpacking items like pots and pans due to its ductility.
      - MeImCounting 3y ago
        Thats cool! I didnt know there were specific common applications where grade 1 would be desirable compared to the stronger alloys available.
        scythe 3y ago
        IIRC you can buy titanium foil that you can just make stuff out of at home.
        blincoln 3y ago
        I have some titanium crafting wire. Should be easy to find on Amazon or similar. It's a little surreal - looks similar to a roll of steel wire, but feels as lightweight as PLA. Basically the real-world version of mithril.
  - cwillu 3y ago
    So called “mild steel” would be far more accurately called “iron”, the carbon content is insignificant.
    - dreamcompiler 3y ago
      The carbon content of mild steel is low but not insignificant. Pure wrought iron [0] is a dream to forge and it has a huge grain structure. It's more ductile than mild steel but it's also not as hardenable or tough as mild steel [1]. That little bit of carbon in mild steel makes a big difference. [0] I mean real wrought iron -- the almost 100% elemental stuff -- like the Eiffel tower is made of. This is practically unobtainable today. The "wrought iron" you commonly see for sale nowadays is always mild steel. And "cast iron" is actually very high carbon steel, not iron. Cast iron so high in carbon that it's brittle and cannot be forged or easily welded. [1] It's a myth that mild steel cannot be hardened. With a proper wetting agent added to the quench, you can harden it significantly.
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        Wrought iron and mild steel are more or less functionally equivalent. One other reason why cast iron is so brittle is because it contains quite a bit of silicon.
  - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
    > We're not talking about exotic and expensive... > "general" or common steel and "common"/"general" titanium Why would you compare 'trash-quality' steel vs exotic and expensive material like Titanium? That does not make any sence.
- rowanG077 3y ago
  There are definitely steels that lose out to grade 5 Titanium. There are also steels that beat all Titanium grades. It's not so simple to say steel is stronger then Titanium. Some steels are stronger then titanium. Some Titanium grades are stronger then Some steels.
- scythe 3y ago
  Wikipedia: >4340 steel is an ultra-high strength steel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4340_steel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4340_steel The alloy composition calls for 0.2-0.3% molybdenum and expects accuracy to within a few per mille for ten elements. Moly is considered so important that there are entire towns in the United States established to mine it to secure the military supply chain.
  - justinator 3y ago
    Is this true? From the Wikipedia article, the two mines that produce molybdenum as the main product are the two in CO, Henderson and Climax. They have no towns associated with them. Climax is near Leadville, but Leadville existed as a mining town before molybdenum was being mined at any scale. The other mine isn't close to any town that has more than a trailer park of people. The others mine molybdenum as a byproduct of copper. I guess you could say the Bagdad mine has a company town, but it wasn't made to secure the military supply chain 140 year ago.
petertodd 3y ago
Read this for starters: https://www.thomasnet.com/articles/metals-metal-products/steel-vs-titanium-strength-properties-and-uses/ https://www.thomasnet.com/articles/metals-metal-products/ste... "When comparing the tensile yield strengths of titanium and steel, an interesting fact occurs; steel is by-and-large stronger than titanium." Many people confuse this issue, because they're actually talking about measures of strength/weight ratios, on which titanium does really well. But if you are size limited rather than weight limited, steel is often a better material than titanium even when cost is no object.
- saberience 3y ago
  Every source says that titanium is as strong as the most commonly used steel. Sure if you're going for lesser used alloys of steel you may as well compare to lesser used alloys of titanium. Or just compare iron with titanium, as that's really comparing one element with another, and is the "fair" comparison. And anyway, your original comment suggested someone was totally in the wrong for thinking a 4mm titanium plate was strong, which is obviously incorrect. 4mmm of titanium plate is clearly going to be really strong and resistant. They wouldn't make plane engines from it if it wasn't.
  - petertodd 3y ago
    > They wouldn't make plane engines from it if it wasn't. ...but they don't! Jet engines can only use titanium for certain low pressure, low temperature, sections. The high temperature parts are made from nickle/iron-based superalloys. And aluminum still gets significant usage, because for many geometries an aluminum part has a better strength/weight ratio. Like I said, titanium is strong. But it's not magic. Stronger than any aluminum alloy, weaker than commonly used steel alloys. Hitting a 4mm plate of titanium with a hammer just isn't a very special experience. I've done it. Hitting a 4mm tool steel plate definitely can be a special experience. Because it's so strong and hard that you could easily cause the thing to shatter, sending sharp shards in unpredictable directions...
  - MeImCounting 3y ago
    No the parent is correct. Steel is by and large stronger than titanium of the same size. Pray tell what is this "most commonly used alloy of steel"? Because just fyi different steel alloys are used for different applications just like different titanium alloys are also used for different applications. Titanium has excellent strength to weight properties compared to steel. A 4mm titanium plate would absolutely be dented by common shop hammers. This doesnt mean that "titanium isnt strong" it just means they have different material properties.

robotomir 3y ago

I had a titanium Tissot watch and it scratched easier than steel watches.

mkii 3y ago
Yep, I have a couple titanium watches too. I find that the scratches picked up every here and there adds to the "character" of the piece. Like it's living life with me.