3 ms·

> Could you enlighten us? How does one launder money through some iOS apps? You use stolen credit cards to purchase the app. It's a very common method of fraud

by sp0rk 3y ago

> Could you enlighten us? How does one launder money through some iOS apps? You use stolen credit cards to purchase the app. It's a very common method of fraud and does not require a criminal mastermind or a group of people to perform. I have no opinion on what happened in this particular case, but it's crazy to imply that nobody is doing this stuff.

moralestapia 3y ago
You answered to the wrong comment maybe? Because that is not money laundering.
- quickthrowman 3y ago
  It sounds like you have no idea what money laundering actually is, to be honest. Money laundering is concealing the source of illegally obtained money. You use stolen credit cards to buy gift cards (or just defraud people to obtain gift cards). This is dirty money. You pay it to yourself on the App Store by getting an app listed and buying it. Apple then deposits money (minus their 30% cut) in your bank account, which is clean money. How is that not money laundering?
  - moralestapia 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - quickthrowman 3y ago
      > That's the dumbest way one could launder money. So now you’re admitting the scenario I proposed is money laundering. Have a nice day :)
      - moralestapia 3y ago
        [flagged]
    - jholman 3y ago
      Wait, your argument is "this suspension by Apple couldn't be due to Apple catching them laundering money" because "this isn't money laundering" because "if someone laundered money this way, they would get caught"? Do you not understand that you just destroyed your own argument? And I have inside knowledge that you're wrong at least much of the time. This particular case, I have no idea, but extremely competent teams inside FAANG believe that there are many billions of dollars of attempted money laundering of this form, that they catch and stop.
  - matwood 3y ago
    The stolen CCs are not part of the laundering (that's just fraud/theft). I think it's easier to talk about laundering cash from drug sales. You buy an Apple Gift card with the cash. Use the gift card to buy jewels in an app you control, and now you have cleaned your drug money. The challenge with doing this at scale on the App Store is the account requirement. Apple also likely has controls on how many gift cards you can redeem over a period of time. You also need an app that looks plausibly functional. The amount of money people supposedly spend on gems or whatever will help though.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > that is not money laundering I’m willingly jumping into a hornet’s nest, but out of genuine curiosity, why?
  - moralestapia 3y ago
    Money laundering is not "making money through illicit means" as many people confuse it with. Money laundering is the act of concealing that money, so that it becomes clean money in the face of any curious observer. They often go hand in hand but they are different things. An example, you have 1M cash but you need it in your bank account, because you want to buy a house or a car or groceries. If you just go to your bank with 1M in a briefcase a lot of people are going to ask you "where did that money came from?". But if you do ???? and you have a legit (or legit enough) excuse for that, you may get away with it and now you can use your money and people think you're a mastermind entrepreneur or something. There's a reason why the first money launderers were laundromats and similar businesses, anything with plausible cash flow, because then you can go to the bank and tell them "I just run a very successful laundry business, and that's why I have a big bunch of $10 and $20 bills, some of them may have a bit of blood in them, though". Much more complex ways exist but the gist of it is this. If you take legit money from someone's bank account, move it through Apple, then send it to Chile(?), then take it out(?) that's literally the opposite of what you'd like to achieve, hence why this argument is so absurd.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > Money laundering is not "making money through illicit means" This is correct. > Money laundering is the act of concealing that money, so that it becomes clean money in the face of any curious observer This is the middle step, layering. Before that is placement, introducing the funds into the financial system; after, integration, withdrawing clean money. Here, stealing the credit cards is the original crime. That per se is not money laundering. Running them is analogous to placement. Mixing those stolen numbers with people who legitimately forgot to cancel their subscriptions is layering. Getting a bank deposit from Apple: integration. (Banks won't question deposits from Apple.) That process, altogether, is absolutely money laundering. The stolen credit cards are actually irrelevant. If the developer's dirty sources need to layer their funds, they can subscribe to the app and have it laundered for a meagre 30% haircut. Do that across a number of assumed identities and it's a decent cottage money-laundering operation. > it almost always involves putting cash into a bank account It very rarely does anymore. Certainly not at scale.
mk67 3y ago
How would you get the money you possess and want to launder on the stolen credit card? That more sounds like a method to extract money from stolen credit cards, but not a valid way to launder money.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

by sp0rk 3y ago

moralestapia 3y ago

You answered to the wrong comment maybe? Because that is not money laundering.

quickthrowman 3y ago
It sounds like you have no idea what money laundering actually is, to be honest. Money laundering is concealing the source of illegally obtained money. You use stolen credit cards to buy gift cards (or just defraud people to obtain gift cards). This is dirty money. You pay it to yourself on the App Store by getting an app listed and buying it. Apple then deposits money (minus their 30% cut) in your bank account, which is clean money. How is that not money laundering?
- moralestapia 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - quickthrowman 3y ago
    > That's the dumbest way one could launder money. So now you’re admitting the scenario I proposed is money laundering. Have a nice day :)
    - moralestapia 3y ago
      [flagged]
  - jholman 3y ago
    Wait, your argument is "this suspension by Apple couldn't be due to Apple catching them laundering money" because "this isn't money laundering" because "if someone laundered money this way, they would get caught"? Do you not understand that you just destroyed your own argument? And I have inside knowledge that you're wrong at least much of the time. This particular case, I have no idea, but extremely competent teams inside FAANG believe that there are many billions of dollars of attempted money laundering of this form, that they catch and stop.
- matwood 3y ago
  The stolen CCs are not part of the laundering (that's just fraud/theft). I think it's easier to talk about laundering cash from drug sales. You buy an Apple Gift card with the cash. Use the gift card to buy jewels in an app you control, and now you have cleaned your drug money. The challenge with doing this at scale on the App Store is the account requirement. Apple also likely has controls on how many gift cards you can redeem over a period of time. You also need an app that looks plausibly functional. The amount of money people supposedly spend on gems or whatever will help though.
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> that is not money laundering I’m willingly jumping into a hornet’s nest, but out of genuine curiosity, why?
- moralestapia 3y ago
  Money laundering is not "making money through illicit means" as many people confuse it with. Money laundering is the act of concealing that money, so that it becomes clean money in the face of any curious observer. They often go hand in hand but they are different things. An example, you have 1M cash but you need it in your bank account, because you want to buy a house or a car or groceries. If you just go to your bank with 1M in a briefcase a lot of people are going to ask you "where did that money came from?". But if you do ???? and you have a legit (or legit enough) excuse for that, you may get away with it and now you can use your money and people think you're a mastermind entrepreneur or something. There's a reason why the first money launderers were laundromats and similar businesses, anything with plausible cash flow, because then you can go to the bank and tell them "I just run a very successful laundry business, and that's why I have a big bunch of $10 and $20 bills, some of them may have a bit of blood in them, though". Much more complex ways exist but the gist of it is this. If you take legit money from someone's bank account, move it through Apple, then send it to Chile(?), then take it out(?) that's literally the opposite of what you'd like to achieve, hence why this argument is so absurd.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > Money laundering is not "making money through illicit means" This is correct. > Money laundering is the act of concealing that money, so that it becomes clean money in the face of any curious observer This is the middle step, layering. Before that is placement, introducing the funds into the financial system; after, integration, withdrawing clean money. Here, stealing the credit cards is the original crime. That per se is not money laundering. Running them is analogous to placement. Mixing those stolen numbers with people who legitimately forgot to cancel their subscriptions is layering. Getting a bank deposit from Apple: integration. (Banks won't question deposits from Apple.) That process, altogether, is absolutely money laundering. The stolen credit cards are actually irrelevant. If the developer's dirty sources need to layer their funds, they can subscribe to the app and have it laundered for a meagre 30% haircut. Do that across a number of assumed identities and it's a decent cottage money-laundering operation. > it almost always involves putting cash into a bank account It very rarely does anymore. Certainly not at scale.

mk67 3y ago

How would you get the money you possess and want to launder on the stolen credit card? That more sounds like a method to extract money from stolen credit cards, but not a valid way to launder money.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]