7 ms·

You Can't Fact Check Propaganda

55 points by rzk 3y ago

082349872349872 3y ago
see also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38295366 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38295366
goodSteveramos 3y ago
The author is dismayed by the fact that a lot of the things Israel’s critics are saying are indisputably true and so can’t be ‘debunked’. Maybe we shouldn’t be so worried about ‘debunking’ true things people say and instead should stop Israel from doing the very deplorable things it has done for its entire existence.
- robbieboy 3y ago
  Did you even read the article?
- proudeu 3y ago
  Agree, it is crazy how Americans are falling for Israeli propaganda. I dont even mean evangelical crazies but also normal human beings who I talked to seem to still view Israel as a democratic state that has right to commit genocide. In Europe it is way less common to support Israeli crimes now, even my baby boomer colleagues are more pro Palestine than before.
  - ImAnAmateur 3y ago
    This article is equally applicable to the 2016 and 2020 US elections. If the current wars are too hot to discuss, then pick something from years back. You both are going off topic with this. Please don't interpret this reply as a put-down.
  - viro 3y ago
    Attacking a nation state that attacked you first isn't committing genocide. Its also funny that you think the EU(the world champs at enslaving and colonizing the world) has some how evolved past the same shit they literally did in the 90's.
    - watwut 3y ago
      Genocide is defined by intention to remove population or preventing their breeding. It has nothing to with who attacked who first or whether something ia nation state or not. EU as in European Union came to be long after colonization and have member states that were colonies of someone else.
      - yostrovs 3y ago
        Did France give up its colonies already? Minister of the Interior and Overseas Territories is a title in France. What about the Dutch? Those don't count, I'm guessing, because the colonies have been subdued and don't show up in the news feed.
        watwut 3y ago
        So basically, EU did not actively enslaved or colonized anything. But, past colonies of some EU member states mean that there can not be genocide anywhere outside of Europe.
    - kiwikan 3y ago
      killing thousands of children deliberately is genocide
      - bluecheese452 3y ago
        It is not. That is not what genocide means.
        TillE 3y ago
  - Pigalowda 3y ago
    “Falling for Israeli propaganda”? The western liberal sentiment is irrelevant. They cared about the Uighurs, Kashmere, Hong Kong, and Ukraine for upvotes, shares, and likes. When those didn’t generate enough interest they moved on. Hamas is their new shiny bauble. The Gaza strip will be completely leveled. A bunch of noise on the internet will not change that. There will be a new topic in less a years time. We shall see what it is.
    - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
      > There will be a new topic in less a years time. We shall see what it is. I can tell you already. The 2024 election.
  - stackedinserter 3y ago
    To which propaganda? Hamas shoots rockets on civilian cities and murdered hundreds on 7/10 and keep hostages – this is true, and many of us know it for sure. I know it because my relatives live there, and one of them was on that damn rave party. We saw these video when Gaza celebrated 7/10 murders – is it "Israeli propaganda"? Or maybe elimination of Israel in Hamas charter is? Americans not "falling for propaganda", we just can differentiate between good and evil.
    - archagon 3y ago
      I’m sorry your relatives were affected by Hamas terrorism. I hope they all made/make it out unscathed. I also saw plenty of people (on Reddit, etc.) celebrating the bombing of Gaza, including incidents where innocent civilians were killed, or were certainly going to get killed. (Because “they all support Hamas anyway.”) Nothing about a group of people in Gaza celebrating terror makes them monsters or even especially unique. Unfortunately, once an enemy is sufficiently dehumanized, we are all susceptible to this sort of behavior.
chii 3y ago
Fact checking is more than just acertaining the truth of the facts. It's checking whether there's omissions or deliberate emphasis on outliers.
- hulitu 3y ago
  That's why a lot of propaganda outlets have started to have "fact checks" about "fake news".
garbanz0 3y ago
> Fact-checking will struggle to counter propaganda, then, because it will either focus on the wrong thing (facts instead of the bigger picture), or it will focus on the right thing and risk becoming propaganda itself. In my opinion, this entire essay is the author struggling with their own cognitive dissonance that fact checking as it plays out in American media smells a lot like propaganda, but it surely can't be propaganda, because it's done by the good guys and for good intentions. But the American propaganda arm is very old and well established. There is no informational authority and there never was or can be.
- 47393ii4 3y ago
  I couldn't entirely tell if you were being sarcastic so I just figured I'd reply as though not. But, why can't the "truth" be propaganda? The presentation and presenter of a truth are just as significant for steering discourse and mass understanding of a given fact as the fact itself.
- viro 3y ago
  its important to remember propaganda doesn't mean false. Aslong as its trying to influence or persuade an audience to further an agenda its propaganda.
  - hulitu 3y ago
    > its important to remember propaganda doesn't mean false It doesn't mean true either.
    - pauldenton 3y ago
      [dead]
- pxoe 3y ago
  how's the rest of the world dealing with those things?
  - hulitu 3y ago
eviks 3y ago
> observed that propagandists on either side of World War II were as truthful as they could be. Lying all the time still fits the limits of "as they could be" if there are serious constraints on truth (as was the case in WWII) > The manual for the American and British expeditionary forces warned that “when the listener catches you in a lie, your power diminishes.… For this reason, never tell a lie which can be discovered.” There's a manual, then there's reality of people ignoring manuals What's the point of going so shallow all the way to WWII when you can observe in real time how much outright and easily discoverable lying there is in the current batches of propaganda?
- tdeck 3y ago
  It's also worth noting that they're not going to publish a manual that says "the policy of our propaganda department is to lie as often as we think we can get away with". If that leaks, it undermines trust in an obvious way.
BnRJ401E29F8Q3v 3y ago
Who gets to decide what propaganda is?
- hulitu 3y ago
  The media. Mostly. And politicians. /s
- everybodyknows 3y ago
  Whoever is speaking at the moment, it seems. Though it might be wise to defer to a standard dictionary on the question: https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=propaganda https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=propaganda https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/propaganda https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/propaganda
throwawayworld 3y ago
Funnily fact checkers are the extremists in my experience as a result I stopped reading news at all.. I don't care what happens to the world anymore
ZeroGravitas 3y ago
This introduces a complex view of truth and then just kind of gives up. I agree that fact checkers can't do much against people putting too much emphasis on specific true facts and ignoring others to build a narrative. But, they became a thing because people were just making shit up about things that did not happen. Quotes that were not said. Social media posts that totally misrepresented something. We now have even better tools for faking images, audio and video. So, they'll not singlehandedly save the world from itself, but they have a vital role. Not only do they let you look up a bit of surprising news and find out whether it is false they'll generally give a bit of context. It not perfect but it's useful, and the people doing it don't need to solve every problem. Imagine trying to counter a narrative when basic reality can be manufactured at will.
stackedinserter 3y ago
> the most effective propagandists have insisted that propaganda should tell the truth. In his Propaganda: The Formation of Men’s Attitudes, French sociologist Jacques Ellul observed that propagandists on either side of World War II were as truthful as they could be. Hamas and pallywood don't even bother. I guess their workbooks say something like "Just show some people that start crying when camera turns to them, or mention children, it will be enough for western useful idiots".

55 points by rzk 3y ago

see also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38295366 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38295366

The author is dismayed by the fact that a lot of the things Israel’s critics are saying are indisputably true and so can’t be ‘debunked’. Maybe we shouldn’t be so worried about ‘debunking’ true things people say and instead should stop Israel from doing the very deplorable things it has done for its entire existence.

robbieboy 3y ago
Did you even read the article?
proudeu 3y ago
Agree, it is crazy how Americans are falling for Israeli propaganda. I dont even mean evangelical crazies but also normal human beings who I talked to seem to still view Israel as a democratic state that has right to commit genocide. In Europe it is way less common to support Israeli crimes now, even my baby boomer colleagues are more pro Palestine than before.
- ImAnAmateur 3y ago
  This article is equally applicable to the 2016 and 2020 US elections. If the current wars are too hot to discuss, then pick something from years back. You both are going off topic with this. Please don't interpret this reply as a put-down.
- viro 3y ago
  Attacking a nation state that attacked you first isn't committing genocide. Its also funny that you think the EU(the world champs at enslaving and colonizing the world) has some how evolved past the same shit they literally did in the 90's.
  - watwut 3y ago
    Genocide is defined by intention to remove population or preventing their breeding. It has nothing to with who attacked who first or whether something ia nation state or not. EU as in European Union came to be long after colonization and have member states that were colonies of someone else.
    - yostrovs 3y ago
      Did France give up its colonies already? Minister of the Interior and Overseas Territories is a title in France. What about the Dutch? Those don't count, I'm guessing, because the colonies have been subdued and don't show up in the news feed.
      - watwut 3y ago
        So basically, EU did not actively enslaved or colonized anything. But, past colonies of some EU member states mean that there can not be genocide anywhere outside of Europe.
  - kiwikan 3y ago
    killing thousands of children deliberately is genocide
    - bluecheese452 3y ago
      It is not. That is not what genocide means.
      - TillE 3y ago
- Pigalowda 3y ago
  “Falling for Israeli propaganda”? The western liberal sentiment is irrelevant. They cared about the Uighurs, Kashmere, Hong Kong, and Ukraine for upvotes, shares, and likes. When those didn’t generate enough interest they moved on. Hamas is their new shiny bauble. The Gaza strip will be completely leveled. A bunch of noise on the internet will not change that. There will be a new topic in less a years time. We shall see what it is.
  - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
    > There will be a new topic in less a years time. We shall see what it is. I can tell you already. The 2024 election.
- stackedinserter 3y ago
  To which propaganda? Hamas shoots rockets on civilian cities and murdered hundreds on 7/10 and keep hostages – this is true, and many of us know it for sure. I know it because my relatives live there, and one of them was on that damn rave party. We saw these video when Gaza celebrated 7/10 murders – is it "Israeli propaganda"? Or maybe elimination of Israel in Hamas charter is? Americans not "falling for propaganda", we just can differentiate between good and evil.
  - archagon 3y ago
    I’m sorry your relatives were affected by Hamas terrorism. I hope they all made/make it out unscathed. I also saw plenty of people (on Reddit, etc.) celebrating the bombing of Gaza, including incidents where innocent civilians were killed, or were certainly going to get killed. (Because “they all support Hamas anyway.”) Nothing about a group of people in Gaza celebrating terror makes them monsters or even especially unique. Unfortunately, once an enemy is sufficiently dehumanized, we are all susceptible to this sort of behavior.

chii 3y ago

Fact checking is more than just acertaining the truth of the facts. It's checking whether there's omissions or deliberate emphasis on outliers.

hulitu 3y ago
That's why a lot of propaganda outlets have started to have "fact checks" about "fake news".

garbanz0 3y ago

> Fact-checking will struggle to counter propaganda, then, because it will either focus on the wrong thing (facts instead of the bigger picture), or it will focus on the right thing and risk becoming propaganda itself. In my opinion, this entire essay is the author struggling with their own cognitive dissonance that fact checking as it plays out in American media smells a lot like propaganda, but it surely can't be propaganda, because it's done by the good guys and for good intentions. But the American propaganda arm is very old and well established. There is no informational authority and there never was or can be.

47393ii4 3y ago
I couldn't entirely tell if you were being sarcastic so I just figured I'd reply as though not. But, why can't the "truth" be propaganda? The presentation and presenter of a truth are just as significant for steering discourse and mass understanding of a given fact as the fact itself.
viro 3y ago
its important to remember propaganda doesn't mean false. Aslong as its trying to influence or persuade an audience to further an agenda its propaganda.
- hulitu 3y ago
  > its important to remember propaganda doesn't mean false It doesn't mean true either.
  - pauldenton 3y ago
    [dead]
pxoe 3y ago
how's the rest of the world dealing with those things?
- hulitu 3y ago

eviks 3y ago

> observed that propagandists on either side of World War II were as truthful as they could be. Lying all the time still fits the limits of "as they could be" if there are serious constraints on truth (as was the case in WWII) > The manual for the American and British expeditionary forces warned that “when the listener catches you in a lie, your power diminishes.… For this reason, never tell a lie which can be discovered.” There's a manual, then there's reality of people ignoring manuals What's the point of going so shallow all the way to WWII when you can observe in real time how much outright and easily discoverable lying there is in the current batches of propaganda?

tdeck 3y ago
It's also worth noting that they're not going to publish a manual that says "the policy of our propaganda department is to lie as often as we think we can get away with". If that leaks, it undermines trust in an obvious way.

BnRJ401E29F8Q3v 3y ago

Who gets to decide what propaganda is?

hulitu 3y ago
The media. Mostly. And politicians. /s
everybodyknows 3y ago
Whoever is speaking at the moment, it seems. Though it might be wise to defer to a standard dictionary on the question: https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=propaganda https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=propaganda https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/propaganda https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/propaganda

throwawayworld 3y ago

Funnily fact checkers are the extremists in my experience as a result I stopped reading news at all.. I don't care what happens to the world anymore

ZeroGravitas 3y ago

This introduces a complex view of truth and then just kind of gives up. I agree that fact checkers can't do much against people putting too much emphasis on specific true facts and ignoring others to build a narrative. But, they became a thing because people were just making shit up about things that did not happen. Quotes that were not said. Social media posts that totally misrepresented something. We now have even better tools for faking images, audio and video. So, they'll not singlehandedly save the world from itself, but they have a vital role. Not only do they let you look up a bit of surprising news and find out whether it is false they'll generally give a bit of context. It not perfect but it's useful, and the people doing it don't need to solve every problem. Imagine trying to counter a narrative when basic reality can be manufactured at will.

stackedinserter 3y ago

> the most effective propagandists have insisted that propaganda should tell the truth. In his Propaganda: The Formation of Men’s Attitudes, French sociologist Jacques Ellul observed that propagandists on either side of World War II were as truthful as they could be. Hamas and pallywood don't even bother. I guess their workbooks say something like "Just show some people that start crying when camera turns to them, or mention children, it will be enough for western useful idiots".