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It's sad that bug reports are considered a developer thing instead of a user/power user thing. I think the big issue is that most people have no idea how anythi

It's sad that bug reports are considered a developer thing instead of a user/power user thing. I think the big issue is that most people have no idea how anything actually works. They aren't really users. At least not like users of old. They are just consumers that don't use the OS, just consume it.

gretch 3y ago
It’s not sad at all. Modern life is complex and we all know some stuff more than others. Should doctors think it’s sad when you don’t know enough about your body to self diagnose? What about legal disputes? You are a power user of society and you still need to hire a lawyer to navigate its laws?
- santoshalper 3y ago
  100% this. Also, I have been making software for over 30 years. There was never a time in my life when end users were more competent and understood the systems better. In fact, for baseline technical literacy, you really can't beat Gen Z. They are by far the most technical generation of users I have seen.
  - datameta 3y ago
    Can you expand on the last point from experience? My gut reaction is to disagree, thinking about the level of familiarity required to adopt and deeply leverage an early 80s PC vs a modern smartphone. Do you mean higher average level of google-fu? Do you mean lower likelihood of collecting an egregious number of viruses?
  - iforgotpassword 3y ago
    Complete opposite of my experience. What field are you working in today? They know their way around apps, might know how to side load, but other than that have no deeper understanding of how things work under the hood, nor the desire to find out, because the phone itself usually works well enough and doesn't completely roll over every couple months like Win9x did back in the day. There is absolutely no incentive nowadays to dig into this for people other than tech enthusiasts. Their knowledge about computers is often close to non-existent, to the point where they get visibly confused by more involved user interfaces of professional software.
  - spiderice 3y ago
    > for baseline technical literacy, you really can't beat Gen Z I disagree pretty strongly with this. I think Millennials were kind of the sweet spot in technical literacy. They grew up in a time when they still needed to understand computers, and tinkered around with them a lot out of necessity (computer viruses all the time, Napster/Limewire, etc..). They also saw the start of the internet and cell phones becoming ubiquitous, which provided a lot of forced-learning opportunities. Gen Z'ers, in my experience, have had almost no computer experience. They are great at using the apps on their phones, but phones have become so polished and easy from an end user perspective that they haven't done any tinkering. They've often never downloaded an mp3 file, torrent, fixed internet issues, etc.. because things just work now. Obviously there are exceptions to this, and really technical Gen Z'ers (like with every generation). But in my experience, that isn't the norm.
    - freedomben 3y ago
      Exactly my experience as well. Gen Z are super good at "finding an app for that" or showing you how to do something on your phone, but give them a mouse and keyboard and many start to resemble Boomers. (Of course there are tons of exceptions, this is generational lumping after all). The hacker mindset just doesn't seem to be present in Gen Z like it was for Millenials and some Gen Xers. We took crap apart as kids to see how it worked, and we could still. Now things are so integrated and miniaturized, it's much harder to do that. Add on top of that how Gen Z is almost all iPhone users and actually looks down on Android (the platform where you can dig in if you want to), it's no wonder the default is only an inch deep. Their tech providers and advisors have been telling them their whole lives how scary the world outside of the walled garden is and putting technical controls in their way to prevent them should they decide they want to. We absolutely could have had the Gen Z that is more technical than Millenials, but we ruined it. It's not their fault, any generation raised like them would have been the same way. Side note: If you're a Gen Z hacker (of which I've known a few and they are super impressive), I consider you a gentleperson and a scholar.
    - Aerbil313 3y ago
      > phones have become so polished and easy from an end user perspective that they haven't done any tinkering I don’t get the complaint, as a dev myself. Everything being easy and just working is what we intended for. The future! It’s here.
  - burnished 3y ago
    Interesting. I used to think along the lines of most of the other responders, but seeing the ritualized nature of the response I'm starting to think this is our generation's "you don't know how to use a band saw".
    - spiderice 3y ago
      If someone said "Millenials are the best generation of band saw users this world has ever seen" I would completely expect the resounding response to be something along the lines of "..uh.. what?". There isn't anything ritualistic about that. In other words, there is a big difference between disagreeing with a statement that doesn't match what you've observed in reality at all, and being entrenched in your ways and insisting that the rising generation isn't "up to snuff". I don't see anyone dunking on Gen Z or insisting that they get their act together because they didn't have as many opportunities to dig into computers growing up. I think there is a real argument to be made that nobody will ever need to be technically savvy again if AGI ever becomes a reality. Edit: Gonna plug the book Scythe if anyone wants a fun read about an AGI run future that isn't the typical "evil AI" trope.
      - burnished 3y ago
        The difference in examples here is scope; you'd probably raise an eyebrow if the band saw thing was followed by 'millennials are bad at building things'. They might be more likely to use a 3d printer than a lathe but that wouldnt lead to being bad at the category. And thats what I think I'm seeing here, inexperience with what we consider to be technology basics being extrapolated to 'bad at technology'. I think the argument you hint at could be interesting and have merit but to tie it back to this comment chain; I don't see any evidence of it here.
- serf 3y ago
  in both of your examples it's still undoubtedly better to be educated on the topic. A person with medical or legal knowledge can advocate on their own behalf. So, swinging this metaphor back to where it came from -- yes, it's not unsurprising that ignorance is the norm, but we must advocate for great enough personal education so as to empower the non-professionals. Bug-reporting is ultimately a user-empowering experience, designed to facilitate the user and make their tools better. This improvement feedback loop isn't developer-only, nor can it ever be; thus all of the reporting tools that are now common-place for the users.
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  Actually I think yes, to a certain degree a mature person should be able to self diagnose and navigate basic laws. And of course, know enough to know your limits, when it is the point to go see an expert.
- iforgotpassword 3y ago
  > Should doctors think it’s sad when you don’t know enough about your body to self diagnose? Well one of the takeaways was that Windows users often didn't even report crashes in the first place, or have completely generic descriptions that didn't help at all. So a better analogy would be: Should doctors think it's sad when you ignore some part of your body acting up, or you suddenly passing out during the day out of nowhere? Or, if you do go to the doctor, all you say is "doctor I'm sick"? I think they should.
  - macintux 3y ago
    Pattern recognition is a critical skill for good bug reports, and for software developers. Not surprising that there's a lot of overlap, and that people who aren't developers may not have honed that skill when it comes to computers.
  - bordercases 3y ago
    > doctor I'm sick Misinformation is more costly than no information. Disinformation is actually more informative!
  - Fatnino 3y ago
    Windows suddenly passing out in middle of the day is normal windows behavior though.
    - calamari4065 3y ago
      Windows is so broken that Windows users just assume that that's how all software is. No amount of complaining or bug reporting will ever get Microsoft to fix a problem, so why bother at all? I'm not even kidding, this is what software has become for the common layperson.
      - delta_p_delta_x 3y ago
        2000 called and it wants its meme back. Modern Windows is pretty resilient. I've had a Windows 10 install going for three years that hasn't BSODed, force-rebooted, or otherwise hung. Also call me when Linux gets proper HDR and HIDPI support. The first 'Retina'-class Windows laptops were released in 2013, ten years ago.
- graemep 3y ago
  No, but people are expected to know when they need to go to a doctor - i.e. they spot the bug, then the doctor debugs.
  - Tijdreiziger 3y ago
    But in software, it’s more like “they spot the bug, the doctor says ‘ok, we’ve forwarded your feedback to our product team,’ and they never hear another thing.”
    - graemep 3y ago
      Maybe that a reason why Linux users are more likely to report bugs? At last with issue trackers for most open source projects (and Linux users use a lot more open source) you know whether developers have any response, there is often discussion, and you know when a fix happens in response to your bug because it gets closed as fixed, often with a link to the commit that fixes it. A lot more motivating than not really getting any response.
c0pium 3y ago
> aren't really users Gatekeeping being a real developer wasn’t bad enough, we’re gatekeeping being a user now? I’ve worked with plenty of developers who would have no idea how to generate a core dump, never mind users. Let’s calm down a bit.
- miningape 3y ago
  Its not gate keeping its an observation on the usage patterns of users. In the early days of computing most users had strong technical skills (shocker), over time the commercialisation of technology and its entrance into everyday life has shifted the amount of users who can even start to understand how their software/hardware works. In contrast Linux is still a very technical OS to use, even installing ubuntu requires a certain __type__ of user, so the amount of Linux users who are capable of understanding their computer is much higher.
  - c0pium 3y ago
    Of course it’s gatekeeping. The point about how technical users used to be may or may not have any truth to it, but that’s orthogonal to whether saying people who can’t take core dumps are not users. If you’re saying that not meeting some bar makes you not a member of a group, that’s gatekeeping. > They are just consumers that don't use the OS, just consume it.
coffeebeqn 3y ago
Not really a developer thing but some cursory understanding of software and it’s lifecycle thing
GuB-42 3y ago
Bug reports are a developer thing because they are also the ones at the receiving end. It means that they know from experience what is useful and what is not. Or maybe if you are QA, in this case, filing proper bug reports is literally your job. But "regular" power users who have no experience in development work (I actually mean work, not just knowing how to code) simply may not have the skills, because yes, writing bug reports is a skill, the kind of skill that takes actual learning and practice, that not that many people have, and that can get you a job if you are good enough at it.
- oooyay 3y ago
  > Bug reports are a developer thing because they are also the ones at the receiving end From my time working in shared platform technologies and open source I beg to differ. The fact that someone is a developer does not mean they'll make a quality bug report. There's probably something else about Linux that makes the self-selection clearer or increases the ease of generating quality bug reports.
  - chii 3y ago
    Having a deep technical understanding (which is likely due to using Linux) is a prerequisite for good bug reports.
    - account42 3y ago
      I think a part is also motivation - there aren't many devs that care to support Linux so when someone does provide a Linux version I am more inclined to help out in making it work. The other part is culture. Linux users are used to having access to bug trackers where they can get responses from actual developers of the software in question. Not that this means you will always get your issue fixed or are even guaranteed a response but IMO the experience is much better than having to dig through a help desk that only answers trivial things that any competent user can figure out on their own before being allowed to interact with a corporate support drone who can't do anything except repeat scripted answers. The latter is just so demotivating that if you have go through it enough end up not bothering in the future even if some developers might have better systems in place. Being used to having access to developers also encourages you to make good bug reports because those will often get you a fix quickly. E.g. I have had cases where it took only a few hours from a bug report with a game trace reproducing the issue to a working graphics driver patch. Lastly, actual bug trackers - as opposed to bug black holes like support systems where you don't see other people's reports or bug report forums that quikcly become a mess of already resolved issues and duplicates - provide an opportunity for the users (especially powerusers) to help each other out by sharing details to narrow down the bug as well as workarounds. All of that also makes the bug reports more useful for any dev looking at fixing the issue.
adrianN 3y ago
I’m a developer and I’m happy if I have a vague idea of how the software I work on functions. I admit that for almost everything I have no idea hier it works.
calamari4065 3y ago
Users should just use the software. I wouldn't expect the typical user to know about or interact with the internals, much less understand them. Good bug reports requires at least some understanding of how software works. I'd consider those to be power users. To over-generalize, Linux users are by necessity power users. When you interact with the internals of your operating system regularly, you get a better sense of how software in general works. Particularly when things go wrong. You have to know how to find and read log files to use Linux. IMO, it's inevitable that Linux users give better bug reports because that's a large part of what it's like to use Linux.
AussieWog93 3y ago
For what it's worth, I've found (mostly non-dev) customers of one of my e-commerce businesses to be pretty good at filing "bug reports" when they receive faulty (or "faulty") hardware. About 50% of the time a complaint will be accompanied by the steps they performed, what they saw and what they expected to see. Often there'll be photos too, and enough information to diagnose remotely. I think the difference with bug reports for commercial software is that it's invariably unacknowledged and unactioned by the developers. Why would you take the time to write out a clean report when the reasonable expectation is that it's ignored?
mvdtnz 3y ago
I'm a customer. If you want detailed bug reports, speak to your qa staff.
- OJFord 3y ago
  Thank you! Try telling Slack that. Report a bug, and they get back to you asking you to change this and that, try again, take a screen recording, blah blah blah - No! I've pointed out to you where there's an issue, described it, have your QA team attempt a reproduction, maybe get back to me if they can't and I'll be more willing, but why do they think I would have time for or care to do their QA, especially when in all likelihood I am a user via my own work.
hinkley 3y ago
Unfortunately I know a lot of devs who file garbage bug reports as well. It’s a smaller ratio than the general public, but it’s far from zero.

gretch 3y ago

It’s not sad at all. Modern life is complex and we all know some stuff more than others. Should doctors think it’s sad when you don’t know enough about your body to self diagnose? What about legal disputes? You are a power user of society and you still need to hire a lawyer to navigate its laws?

santoshalper 3y ago
100% this. Also, I have been making software for over 30 years. There was never a time in my life when end users were more competent and understood the systems better. In fact, for baseline technical literacy, you really can't beat Gen Z. They are by far the most technical generation of users I have seen.
- datameta 3y ago
  Can you expand on the last point from experience? My gut reaction is to disagree, thinking about the level of familiarity required to adopt and deeply leverage an early 80s PC vs a modern smartphone. Do you mean higher average level of google-fu? Do you mean lower likelihood of collecting an egregious number of viruses?
- iforgotpassword 3y ago
  Complete opposite of my experience. What field are you working in today? They know their way around apps, might know how to side load, but other than that have no deeper understanding of how things work under the hood, nor the desire to find out, because the phone itself usually works well enough and doesn't completely roll over every couple months like Win9x did back in the day. There is absolutely no incentive nowadays to dig into this for people other than tech enthusiasts. Their knowledge about computers is often close to non-existent, to the point where they get visibly confused by more involved user interfaces of professional software.
- spiderice 3y ago
  > for baseline technical literacy, you really can't beat Gen Z I disagree pretty strongly with this. I think Millennials were kind of the sweet spot in technical literacy. They grew up in a time when they still needed to understand computers, and tinkered around with them a lot out of necessity (computer viruses all the time, Napster/Limewire, etc..). They also saw the start of the internet and cell phones becoming ubiquitous, which provided a lot of forced-learning opportunities. Gen Z'ers, in my experience, have had almost no computer experience. They are great at using the apps on their phones, but phones have become so polished and easy from an end user perspective that they haven't done any tinkering. They've often never downloaded an mp3 file, torrent, fixed internet issues, etc.. because things just work now. Obviously there are exceptions to this, and really technical Gen Z'ers (like with every generation). But in my experience, that isn't the norm.
  - freedomben 3y ago
    Exactly my experience as well. Gen Z are super good at "finding an app for that" or showing you how to do something on your phone, but give them a mouse and keyboard and many start to resemble Boomers. (Of course there are tons of exceptions, this is generational lumping after all). The hacker mindset just doesn't seem to be present in Gen Z like it was for Millenials and some Gen Xers. We took crap apart as kids to see how it worked, and we could still. Now things are so integrated and miniaturized, it's much harder to do that. Add on top of that how Gen Z is almost all iPhone users and actually looks down on Android (the platform where you can dig in if you want to), it's no wonder the default is only an inch deep. Their tech providers and advisors have been telling them their whole lives how scary the world outside of the walled garden is and putting technical controls in their way to prevent them should they decide they want to. We absolutely could have had the Gen Z that is more technical than Millenials, but we ruined it. It's not their fault, any generation raised like them would have been the same way. Side note: If you're a Gen Z hacker (of which I've known a few and they are super impressive), I consider you a gentleperson and a scholar.
  - Aerbil313 3y ago
    > phones have become so polished and easy from an end user perspective that they haven't done any tinkering I don’t get the complaint, as a dev myself. Everything being easy and just working is what we intended for. The future! It’s here.
- burnished 3y ago
  Interesting. I used to think along the lines of most of the other responders, but seeing the ritualized nature of the response I'm starting to think this is our generation's "you don't know how to use a band saw".
  - spiderice 3y ago
    If someone said "Millenials are the best generation of band saw users this world has ever seen" I would completely expect the resounding response to be something along the lines of "..uh.. what?". There isn't anything ritualistic about that. In other words, there is a big difference between disagreeing with a statement that doesn't match what you've observed in reality at all, and being entrenched in your ways and insisting that the rising generation isn't "up to snuff". I don't see anyone dunking on Gen Z or insisting that they get their act together because they didn't have as many opportunities to dig into computers growing up. I think there is a real argument to be made that nobody will ever need to be technically savvy again if AGI ever becomes a reality. Edit: Gonna plug the book Scythe if anyone wants a fun read about an AGI run future that isn't the typical "evil AI" trope.
    - burnished 3y ago
      The difference in examples here is scope; you'd probably raise an eyebrow if the band saw thing was followed by 'millennials are bad at building things'. They might be more likely to use a 3d printer than a lathe but that wouldnt lead to being bad at the category. And thats what I think I'm seeing here, inexperience with what we consider to be technology basics being extrapolated to 'bad at technology'. I think the argument you hint at could be interesting and have merit but to tie it back to this comment chain; I don't see any evidence of it here.
serf 3y ago
in both of your examples it's still undoubtedly better to be educated on the topic. A person with medical or legal knowledge can advocate on their own behalf. So, swinging this metaphor back to where it came from -- yes, it's not unsurprising that ignorance is the norm, but we must advocate for great enough personal education so as to empower the non-professionals. Bug-reporting is ultimately a user-empowering experience, designed to facilitate the user and make their tools better. This improvement feedback loop isn't developer-only, nor can it ever be; thus all of the reporting tools that are now common-place for the users.
hutzlibu 3y ago
Actually I think yes, to a certain degree a mature person should be able to self diagnose and navigate basic laws. And of course, know enough to know your limits, when it is the point to go see an expert.
iforgotpassword 3y ago
> Should doctors think it’s sad when you don’t know enough about your body to self diagnose? Well one of the takeaways was that Windows users often didn't even report crashes in the first place, or have completely generic descriptions that didn't help at all. So a better analogy would be: Should doctors think it's sad when you ignore some part of your body acting up, or you suddenly passing out during the day out of nowhere? Or, if you do go to the doctor, all you say is "doctor I'm sick"? I think they should.
- macintux 3y ago
  Pattern recognition is a critical skill for good bug reports, and for software developers. Not surprising that there's a lot of overlap, and that people who aren't developers may not have honed that skill when it comes to computers.
- bordercases 3y ago
  > doctor I'm sick Misinformation is more costly than no information. Disinformation is actually more informative!
- Fatnino 3y ago
  Windows suddenly passing out in middle of the day is normal windows behavior though.
  - calamari4065 3y ago
    Windows is so broken that Windows users just assume that that's how all software is. No amount of complaining or bug reporting will ever get Microsoft to fix a problem, so why bother at all? I'm not even kidding, this is what software has become for the common layperson.
    - delta_p_delta_x 3y ago
      2000 called and it wants its meme back. Modern Windows is pretty resilient. I've had a Windows 10 install going for three years that hasn't BSODed, force-rebooted, or otherwise hung. Also call me when Linux gets proper HDR and HIDPI support. The first 'Retina'-class Windows laptops were released in 2013, ten years ago.
graemep 3y ago
No, but people are expected to know when they need to go to a doctor - i.e. they spot the bug, then the doctor debugs.
- Tijdreiziger 3y ago
  But in software, it’s more like “they spot the bug, the doctor says ‘ok, we’ve forwarded your feedback to our product team,’ and they never hear another thing.”
  - graemep 3y ago
    Maybe that a reason why Linux users are more likely to report bugs? At last with issue trackers for most open source projects (and Linux users use a lot more open source) you know whether developers have any response, there is often discussion, and you know when a fix happens in response to your bug because it gets closed as fixed, often with a link to the commit that fixes it. A lot more motivating than not really getting any response.

c0pium 3y ago

> aren't really users Gatekeeping being a real developer wasn’t bad enough, we’re gatekeeping being a user now? I’ve worked with plenty of developers who would have no idea how to generate a core dump, never mind users. Let’s calm down a bit.

miningape 3y ago
Its not gate keeping its an observation on the usage patterns of users. In the early days of computing most users had strong technical skills (shocker), over time the commercialisation of technology and its entrance into everyday life has shifted the amount of users who can even start to understand how their software/hardware works. In contrast Linux is still a very technical OS to use, even installing ubuntu requires a certain __type__ of user, so the amount of Linux users who are capable of understanding their computer is much higher.
- c0pium 3y ago
  Of course it’s gatekeeping. The point about how technical users used to be may or may not have any truth to it, but that’s orthogonal to whether saying people who can’t take core dumps are not users. If you’re saying that not meeting some bar makes you not a member of a group, that’s gatekeeping. > They are just consumers that don't use the OS, just consume it.

coffeebeqn 3y ago

Not really a developer thing but some cursory understanding of software and it’s lifecycle thing

GuB-42 3y ago

Bug reports are a developer thing because they are also the ones at the receiving end. It means that they know from experience what is useful and what is not. Or maybe if you are QA, in this case, filing proper bug reports is literally your job. But "regular" power users who have no experience in development work (I actually mean work, not just knowing how to code) simply may not have the skills, because yes, writing bug reports is a skill, the kind of skill that takes actual learning and practice, that not that many people have, and that can get you a job if you are good enough at it.

oooyay 3y ago
> Bug reports are a developer thing because they are also the ones at the receiving end From my time working in shared platform technologies and open source I beg to differ. The fact that someone is a developer does not mean they'll make a quality bug report. There's probably something else about Linux that makes the self-selection clearer or increases the ease of generating quality bug reports.
- chii 3y ago
  Having a deep technical understanding (which is likely due to using Linux) is a prerequisite for good bug reports.
  - account42 3y ago
    I think a part is also motivation - there aren't many devs that care to support Linux so when someone does provide a Linux version I am more inclined to help out in making it work. The other part is culture. Linux users are used to having access to bug trackers where they can get responses from actual developers of the software in question. Not that this means you will always get your issue fixed or are even guaranteed a response but IMO the experience is much better than having to dig through a help desk that only answers trivial things that any competent user can figure out on their own before being allowed to interact with a corporate support drone who can't do anything except repeat scripted answers. The latter is just so demotivating that if you have go through it enough end up not bothering in the future even if some developers might have better systems in place. Being used to having access to developers also encourages you to make good bug reports because those will often get you a fix quickly. E.g. I have had cases where it took only a few hours from a bug report with a game trace reproducing the issue to a working graphics driver patch. Lastly, actual bug trackers - as opposed to bug black holes like support systems where you don't see other people's reports or bug report forums that quikcly become a mess of already resolved issues and duplicates - provide an opportunity for the users (especially powerusers) to help each other out by sharing details to narrow down the bug as well as workarounds. All of that also makes the bug reports more useful for any dev looking at fixing the issue.

adrianN 3y ago

I’m a developer and I’m happy if I have a vague idea of how the software I work on functions. I admit that for almost everything I have no idea hier it works.

calamari4065 3y ago

Users should just use the software. I wouldn't expect the typical user to know about or interact with the internals, much less understand them. Good bug reports requires at least some understanding of how software works. I'd consider those to be power users. To over-generalize, Linux users are by necessity power users. When you interact with the internals of your operating system regularly, you get a better sense of how software in general works. Particularly when things go wrong. You have to know how to find and read log files to use Linux. IMO, it's inevitable that Linux users give better bug reports because that's a large part of what it's like to use Linux.

AussieWog93 3y ago

For what it's worth, I've found (mostly non-dev) customers of one of my e-commerce businesses to be pretty good at filing "bug reports" when they receive faulty (or "faulty") hardware. About 50% of the time a complaint will be accompanied by the steps they performed, what they saw and what they expected to see. Often there'll be photos too, and enough information to diagnose remotely. I think the difference with bug reports for commercial software is that it's invariably unacknowledged and unactioned by the developers. Why would you take the time to write out a clean report when the reasonable expectation is that it's ignored?

mvdtnz 3y ago

I'm a customer. If you want detailed bug reports, speak to your qa staff.

OJFord 3y ago
Thank you! Try telling Slack that. Report a bug, and they get back to you asking you to change this and that, try again, take a screen recording, blah blah blah - No! I've pointed out to you where there's an issue, described it, have your QA team attempt a reproduction, maybe get back to me if they can't and I'll be more willing, but why do they think I would have time for or care to do their QA, especially when in all likelihood I am a user via my own work.

hinkley 3y ago

Unfortunately I know a lot of devs who file garbage bug reports as well. It’s a smaller ratio than the general public, but it’s far from zero.