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In the gut's 'second brain,' key agents of health emerge
- tomcam 3y agoGiven the size of my gut, I have at least three other brains
- uoaei 3y agoI like to say "the gut is the first brain". There's a reason we perform "gut checks" and "go with our gut" -- it's the first instinct, while the second is the rational systems overlaid on the initial reaction that serve to verify or correct them. Compare with Kahnemann's System 1 and System 2.
- drewcoo 3y agoWe do not have "gut checks" and "going with our guts" because of some ancient wisdom about physiology that only left remnant traces as idioms in English. Also, Kahnemann talked about conscious and unconscious thought, not about "gut thought" and "brain thought." You can teach yourself to behave in certain ways, to just react. That doesn't mean you have a smarter stomach than the next person!
- uoaei 3y agoIt feels like you're just being contrarian without actually putting in the effort to understand. To imply that somatic experience has no influence whatsoever on worldview and by extension on language seems like a very radical position to take given all we know and continue to learn about psychology and neuroscience. I don't think layering on "smarts" onto this discussion is warranted either. Kahnemann's framework maps neatly onto this idea if you consider the seat of unconscious thought not to be localized in the brain (i.e. that all neurons think to some extent), and the seat of conscious thought to be in the prefrontal cortex and its tight interconnections with other brain regions via the default mode network.
- epgui 3y agoThis is not that far from my area of expertise and that's mostly nonsense.
- svat 3y ago> only left remnant traces as idioms in English Just to pursue this thread: the Online Etymology Dictionary says > The notion of the intestines as a seat of emotions is ancient (see bowel) and probably explains expressions such as gut reaction (1963), gut feeling (by 1970), and compare guts. Gut check attested by 1976. where "guts" says: > The idea of the bowels as the seat of the spirit goes back to at least mid-14c. (compare bowel). and "bowel" says: > The transferred sense of "the viscera as the seat of emotions" is from late 14c.; especially "inner parts as the seat of pity or kindness," hence "tenderness, compassion." Greek splankhnon (from the same PIE root as spleen) was a word for the principal internal organs, which also were felt in ancient times to be the seat of various emotions. Greek poets, from Aeschylus down, regarded the bowels as the seat of the more violent passions such as anger and love, but by the Hebrews they were seen as the seat of tender affections, especially kindness, benevolence, and compassion. Splankhnon was used in Septuagint to translate a Hebrew word, and from thence early Bibles in English rendered it in its literal sense as bowels, which thus acquired in English a secondary meaning of "pity, compassion" (late 14c.). But in later editions the word often was translated as heart.
- swayvil 3y agoI agree. Rationality is invariably a rationalization of gut and emotion and such. A wrapper of symbols so we can think and talk about it. And justify our conclusions.
- lotsofspots 3y agoThe enteric nervous system certainly evolved first!
- bethekind 3y agoArticle is about cells in the gut that we barely knew anything about, due to stomach acid and bile making it hard to identify their genetic material. Some researchers are making progress in this area and it's amazing.
- mfer 3y agoThere was a breakthrough in studying the gut biome about a decade ago. Since then we have started to learn so much.
- OliverGilan 3y agoWhat was the breakthrough and what have we learned? I'm interested in reading more about this
- epgui 3y agoThere have been thousands of breakthroughs in the field. The pace of research and progress is incredible.
- kwonkicker 3y agoNo information was exchanged in this conversation
- PaulCarrack 3y agoThey are not wrong, I can attest that there have been a ton of breakthroughs and new developments. I don't know what else you're looking for here? Are you expecting them to list every single breakthrough here for you?
- ace2358 3y agoLiterally 1 would do :)
- abledon 3y agoyogis were right
- quickthrower2 3y agoyoghurts too
- QuibbleQuota 3y agoWhat is it that yogis were right about?
- rramadass 3y agoIn Hatha Yoga, there is a great emphasis placed on cleaning one's gut and entire digestive tract from mouth to anus. This is in addition to maintaining a proper diet. The cleaning techniques are rather unique and are known as Shatkarmas - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shatkarma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shatkarma. In addition, Mula Bandha and Uddiyana Bandha are also relevant here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandha_(yoga) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandha_(yoga)
- kumarvvr 3y agoIndian culture places very strict restrictions about food. 1. No outside food. For even until a decade ago, eating out was considered a last resort. The idea is that one must be aware of what exactly goes into ones food, and that usually meant home cooked food. 2. There are a variety of foods and flavors in India, that are recommended for various circumstances and contexts. Pregnant women had a well defined diet regimen. 3. Certain foods were not allowed in summers and certain foods were not allowed in winters. 4. For Yogis, the dietary restrictions are even stricter. No spices, less salt, limited sugar, limited meals, etc. 5. Fresh food was always prioritised. Food cooked more than 4 hours ago was considered poison. 6. Fasting is recommended in winter months and even once or twice weekly. Indian cuisine and cultural norms are very complex, but well defined. A balanced diet with all tastes, us always insisted. Up until a few decades ago, most items were made with ghee, rather than vegetable oil. And that ghee was also homemade.
- asylteltine 3y agoGut health is absolutely linked to mental health. Besides actual scientific research that backs this up, I didn’t really get my mental health under control until I took care of my gut issues like IBS and stuff. Also avoiding certain foods, not gluten obviously that’s a crock of shit, but things that obviously don’t work with my body like cream sauces or whatever
- brohoolio 3y agoFor you gluten might be fine, but for others it’s not fun, just like cream sauces for you. Everyone’s different.
- atombender 3y ago> not gluten obviously that’s a crock of shit Celiac disease [1] is a real and potential serious autoimmune disorder. Whether non-celiac gluten intolerance is a real thing is another question, though there's some evidence for it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coeliac_disease https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coeliac_disease
- prepend 3y agoCeliac is real, but very rare. I think GP was referring to gluten intolerance where there’s not much evidence to support it.
- epgui 3y agoIt's not that rare anymore. And while it's true that there's a ton of low-quality evidence for non-celiac gluten sensitivity, I think it's become clear that there's something important there (and more research is needed, as if that needed saying). Non-celiac gluten sensitivity is not believed to be fictional-- rather, experts disagree about the details of what it is, how it works, how it is identified, how we should classify different presentations, etc. So yes, the science is shaky, but there is plenty of evidence that it's "a thing"... or "some things".
- 3y ago
- MrDresden 3y agoI've noticed that my 'first' brain acts faster and better if my 'second' brain is feeling good. Probiotic foods, plenty of water and movement have been key factors there.
- pabloarteel 3y agowhat kind of probiotic foods have you successfully included in your daily life?
- XorNot 3y agoL Reuteri supplements made the biggest difference for me after about 3 months.
- whitepoplar 3y agoWhat were the specific benefits you experienced?
- XorNot 3y agoI was able to cease taking a gut motility drug (prucalopride) which I also had to combine with a fiber supplement to get manageable bowel movements (which is to say: no bloating, cramping and other non-specific pain most weeks). I still have issues from time to time, but I'm now also off the fiber supplements entirely as well (some dietary changes probably helped there as well - I cut out almost all sugar). To explain the change: I had weeks where I'd have to take 2-3 movicol satchets a day to try and alleviate the pain: after about 3 months.
- Projectiboga 3y agoRuteri is a patented strain that secretes a protein which helps other good bacteria colonies your gut. That plus a more complete probiotic plus another product Candex can really help your gut biome. Candex is enzymes that dissolve yeasts, which have become a big gut health issue over the last 80 years. Two major brands of probiotics are primadophilus, who have ones with Reuteri and another Jarro-dophilus, which is a collection claimed to reduce putrative bacteria. Finally the ancient Japanese super food Miso prepared at temperatures which keep it alive help colonize with a biome that digests all vegetable protein nearly fully. Probiotics are fiber or long sugars which yeasts can't digest. The big issue nowadays is yeasts and leaky gut. The herbicide Roundup is suspected as a cause of leaky gut syndrome. Avoiding non organic wheat and non organic oats can help while you heal. Going to spelt bread or at least organic can help the gut heal. Using other grains like rice and others can help. Unless diagnosed as gluten intolerant or actually having Celiac disease skip the gluten free breads just avoid non organic wheat & non organic oats while you heal. Once your gut heals you can slowly relax those restrictions.
- DoreenMichele 3y agoBreaking down food requires coordination across dozens of cell types and many tissues — from muscle cells and immune cells to blood and lymphatic vessels. Heading this effort is the gut’s very own network of nerve cells, known as the enteric nervous system... One of the things being studied is the involuntary contractions that move food through the gut.
- epgui 3y agoThat's not wrong, but it's so obvious that I'm wondering what you're trying to say?
- DoreenMichele 3y agoA lot of the comments here are about "the second brain" framing as if we think in our gut, which doesn't appear to be what this research is about at all. You are what you eat and gut health certainly impacts your brain. "A sound mind in a sound body." But that's not really what this article seems to be about.
- epgui 3y agoI'd say that there is some information processing happening in the gut, but I'd also say (in agreement with you) that these other comments border on irrelevant and are for the most part nonsense.
- NeuroCoder 3y agoI really wish they wouldn't call it the second brain. It's very misleading given how the enteric system works in comparison to the brain.
- yamrzou 3y agoHere is a real life video of such contractions: Intestinal Peristalsis — https://youtu.be/hKQ8eFpUKLs https://youtu.be/hKQ8eFpUKLs
- devmor 3y agoI really don't understand why it has taken health research this long to focus on the digestive system. Obviously, it's all hindsight - but the system that controls processing the entirety of our nutrients seems like it would clearly be a lot more important than it has been treated.
- xbmcuser 3y agoI don't think it has rather they have forgotten in the past looking at your shit was a very common way to diagnose your illness. At least that is the case in all old medical systems from Asia.
- rramadass 3y agoSee also: 1) The Second Brain by Michael Gershon. 2) Gut: The Inside Story Of Our Body's Most Under-Rated Organ by Julia Enders.
- thenerdhead 3y agoAnd “I Contain Multitudes” by Ed Wong.
- LargoLasskhyfv 3y agoI think you meant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Yong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Yong ?
- thenerdhead 3y agoYes I did. Sorry it was likely a typo.
- jimmySixDOF 3y agoThere was something about the vegus nerve being influenced by gut microbiota so it's also the parasympathetic not just the enteric nervous system but this is all hard to study I subscribed to u-Boime for a couple of years until that imploded spectacularly and the few snapshots I had are not enough of a sample size this whole field is so data poor and uncertain.
- gardnr 3y agoThen there's something about Heart Rate Variability (HRV), the vagus nerve, parasympathetic nervous system, and gut biome all being connected. I can measure one of those relatively easily with a chest strap. It seems like the only thing we do know at this point is that we don't know anything. This is an interesting TEDx talk from Eran Segal "What is the best diet for humans?": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0z03xkwFbw4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0z03xkwFbw4 My current conjecture / conspiracy theory / understanding includes: * Bacteria near the roots of plants generate electricity. * Plants grow faster in electrified soil. * Electrical brain stimulation can enhance brain function. * There are processes and interactions happening in our gut that we really don't understand yet. * Many ubiquitous things in our environment wreak havoc on our gut biomes (e.g. chlorine, emulsifiers). * There may be more to establishing and maintaining a healthy gut biome than simply consuming foods rich in pre/probiotics. The right kind of exercise and stress may play essential role in keeping it all humming along.
- theshrike79 3y agoThe vagus nerve is the weirdest thing. Had to dig into it a bit to figure out my acid reflux. Basically if I eat stuff that doesn't digest well, my stomach bloats and causes a mild hiatal hernia, which in turn presses on the vagus nerve that travels right next to it. This causes the _exact_ same symptoms as a panic attack. Cold hands and feet, the feeling of an increased heart rate etc. Not super fun when you have a history of actual panic attacks. Then I take some medicine to forcibly relax the esophageal sphincter on top of the stomach and within 10-15 minutes I can literally feel the warmth getting back to my limbs just because of the decreased vagus nerve pressure...
- 3y ago
- Euphorbium 3y agoI’ve recently moved to a meat heavy diet, and that pretty much fixed my ibs completely. I still get flare ups if I eat too many oranges or bananas, but eating meat on every meal is absolutely essential.
- theshrike79 3y agoI'm the opposite, leaving out red meat made my gut feel a lot better. I do still eat the occasional beef burger, but mostly it's either vegan or fish/chicken. This is the thing that's tripping up health professionals about gut health, people's guts are really different and there's no official accepted way of testing what kind of diet works for who. Except for long-term experimentation and elimination and that's not "scientific", so we don't do that. Doctors just want to prescribe a pill that' fits everyone[0] and call it a day. [0] everyone they bothered to test it on, so mostly white western males
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> the thing that's tripping up health professionals about gut health This has been a staple of gut research for >2 decades. It entered the mainstream in the last one.
- theshrike79 3y agoResearch yes, but the actual doctors looking at actual patients not so much sadly.
- vjk800 3y ago> This is the thing that's tripping up health professionals about gut health, people's guts are really different and there's no official accepted way of testing what kind of diet works for who. The more I've learned about my personal response to various health interventions, the more I've come to believe that a "human being" as a research subject for many medical interventions is very ill-defined simply because there is too much variation between individuals. The research subject should really be a single human individual. Poorly working medical treatments to many weird, complicated, chronic illnesses should really be replaced by an algorithm that allows a person to find the correct treatment or lifestyle adjustments themselves.
- kromem 3y agoSo this is really cool. I've been super interested in this one gene mutation called LRRK2 which has a really bizarre link to details in contentious debates over history (too long to include in this comment). The gene mutation is connected to both Crohn's disease and Parkinson's. So after seeing this article about how glial issues are connected to Crohn's, my immediate thought was - well, what about Parkinson's? And indeed, it looks like the LRRK2 mutation contributes to Parkinson's by screwing up the glial cells: Is Glial Dysfunction the Key Pathogenesis of LRRK2-Linked Parkinson’s Disease? (2023): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9856048/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9856048/ (I can't wait for LLMs to advance enough that parallel discoveries in subdomains are teased out as further cross discipline research candidates.)
- apienx 3y agohttps://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-36497-x https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-36497-x
- zacmps 3y agoLLMs also have huge potential for helping us understand genetics, see Facebook's ESM for example.
- kromem 3y agoOne of the cool discoveries in Anthropic's approach to introspection by functional grouping of neural network nodes was that there was a series of nodes dedicated to firing when it was looking at a DNA sequence.
- trash_cat 3y agoThe gut-brain Axis is definitely underappreciated. Scientifically and otherwise.
- burrish 3y ago>“Digestion is required for survival,” said Marissa Scavuzzo nice quote nerds
- mymusewww 3y ago[flagged]
- rs_rs_rs_rs_rs 3y agobig bacteria, obviously...
- mymusewww 3y ago[flagged]
- darthrupert 3y agoThis should be taken into account when researching the health effects of coffee. I can drink about as much tea as fits into my stomach without too many mental effects, but coffee (or lack thereof) has strong effects. Just caffeine cannot explain this.
- wnolens 3y agoHave you tried decaf longer term? I started getting panic attacks about 10 years ago and narrowed it down to coffee, so I went from 2-3 cups per day, to 1 cup before noon only and that helped. Then my life got a lot harder and panic attacks came back, so I'm on strictly decaf for the last 3 years. No more panic. Noticeably less anxiety. It's so directly related for me that sometimes I'm on vacation and have regular coffee. After 2-3 days of relaxing my decaf-only rule, I feel it coming.
- belugacat 3y agoThis is why the reductionist argument of "your brain is reducible to a computer with inputs/outputs like any other, all we have to do is reimplement it" of AGI proponents always fell flat to me. It's now becoming clear that we can't just take the brain in isolation, treating the spinal nerve like a PCI-E lane - the gut has to come with it. And if the gut comes with it, all the other organs (skin top of the list) probably do as well. Now to model a human brain, you need to model an entire human, along with all the complexity of the microbiota, interactions of the organs with the environment... it all just falls apart.
- saiya-jin 3y agoYes you are probably right, but generally I don't get why AGI needs to be 100% mimicking every aspect of human, just better/faster. Like proverbial skynet can have extreme excellence in one/few aspect of general intelligence but can be muted to almost 0 on everything else, say emotions, yet still be falling into AGI behavior and could take over the world. It doesn't need to simulate gut interactions to get there. And I think for such an entity we may be closer to emerging than we like, especially if it can traverse whole internet including this comment and make summaries out of it out of reach to mere mortals.
- mewpmewp2 3y ago> And I think for such an entity we may be closer to emerging than we like Why are people talking about it as if it was a bad thing? If I listen to people everyone seems to be dissatisfied with their life as of now, due to work, politics, society and everything else. If AGI was to arrive it would potentially remove those frustrations, right.
- haswell 3y ago> If AGI was to arrive it would potentially remove those frustrations, right. We don’t really know what happens next. There are optimistic outcomes that AGI could enable, but this tech is ultimately being built and distributed by humans currently deeply beholden to the system that everyone seems dissatisfied with. AGI is not some savior that bursts onto the scene and magically fixes problems. There’s a lot of very messy human work ahead of us if we ever hope to integrate it with society in a way that actually removes those frustrations. And this is not a guaranteed outcome.
- thenerdhead 3y agoReally exciting findings. Especially given that just last year there were similar threads here where many completely rejected the idea that the gut is a second brain. We live in a very exciting time for science. Especially given we have some initial tools for understanding our guts.
- porompompero 3y agoTry putting some iogurt after soap for 2 minutes just before the final cleansing in the shower. You might, like me, start thinking beyond the second brain idea. It is all connected.
- michael1999 3y agoEvolutionarily, I would assert this is our first brain, and the cerebral brain is the jumped-up newcomer. It started as a glorified video card peripheral and motion tracker/planner, and developed delusions of grandeur.
- 11235813213455 3y agoThat's why the sitting position is not great, you shouldn't sit on your 2nd brain door! Seriously squatting, kneeling (like Japanese people) has immense benefits for digestion, aside from what you eat too obviously (as natural things as possible)
- wood-porch 3y agoI took antibiotics more than 2 years ago and after about 4 days I was a wreck. I was anxiety riddled for a bit over a year. Thankfully, I feel normal again! But yea, scary stuff.
- rramadass 3y agoYou might find this article interesting : https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200108-the-medications-that-change-who-we-are https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200108-the-medications-...