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But would you let them? Alone, I mean. No pre-set plan, no parental supervision, just a “I’m going to go meet my friends on this summer day, I’ll be back befor

But would you let them? Alone, I mean. No pre-set plan, no parental supervision, just a “I’m going to go meet my friends on this summer day, I’ll be back before dinner.” For purposes of illustration, assume these kids are aged 9-14, or thereabouts. Too young to drive, too old to be doted over every minute of the day. If you would (and I hope you would!), would their friends’ parents? Would they be able to go casually knock on their friends’ doors (or even neighbors’ doors), be it biking or walking, and socialize, like kids do? My guess is probably not. And that’s not the kids’ doing— that’s OUR doing. If parents really wanted their kids to go outside and explore, that would be the norm. But for far too many kids it’s not, because parents don’t want it to be: they’re worried about their kid getting hit by a car, kidnapped, getting in trouble, learning a lesson, the list goes on and on. The built environment reflects that kids are not expected to be outside, as if we’ve kid-proofed it. And so even if you want your kid to play outside, no one else is, and of course no kid wants to play alone! Ironically, you would probably see more kids out and about, safe to be kids, in gasp New York City than in “safe” suburbia, from my own anecdotal experience.

NegativeLatency 3y ago
There's currently a strike in Portland, and I've appreciated seeing kids out and about being little adults, taking the bus, etc, makes me really glad to live in city even with all the cars and noise.
- yalestar 3y ago
  I've noticed that too during this teachers' strike in Portland! It was really one of the most unexpectedly heartening things I've seen in a while.
wizerdrobe 3y ago
I’m trying to put this politely - I promise! There’s a world out there far and beyond whatever bubble you’re in. My daughter (6) can go out back on the playground or practice archery or whatever. My next-door neighbor (next-door in the original, pre-app sense) has a dirt bike track for his handful of kids (5+ and up) I’ve got all kinds of neighbors with kids doing all the old things we did pre-Black Mirror in the pocket. Don’t get me wrong, I FIGHT like a… expletive, with my kids about screen time to a degree that my folks and older siblings laugh about given I’m a self-taught teenage hacker. But kids and communities with “go do shit” old-er school norms exist outside of the big cities.
- ricardobeat 3y ago
  That sounds great! But have you considered that you may be the one living in a bubble? What you described is the exception, most people live in either sterile suburbs and small towns, or densely packed (and dangerous) cities. Space for a dirt track in your backyard is a pipe dream. Around the world, the closest to your description would be rural areas in less developed countries, which is also a small % of the population.
  - lebean 3y ago
    Good point! Excuse me for interjecting here, but is it possible that you yourself are in a bubble of sorts?
    - codeTired 3y ago
      It’s bubbles all the way down.
  - dalbasal 3y ago
    The bubble op referred to is not a particular place or lifestyle. The bubble, in this context, is the average/representative lifestyle and parenting depicted in lifestyle journalism/blogging space. The proverbial TED abstraction. Obviously physical circumstances are vary, but that didn't start in the smartphone era.
    - watwut 3y ago
      Yeah and the person with kids being allowed outside is the one living in a bubble in USA. And the people outside of his bubble do get really outraged over the idea that 7 years old could be outside without parent.
      - squigz 3y ago
        Lots of people handwaving about "bubbles" and making vast generalizations about massive populations. Is there any objective data to back these claims up? For what it's worth, I wouldn't claim either of the sides in this conversation are the norm; I know plenty of people who will let their kids run around, and plenty of people who wouldn't.
anon291 3y ago
My daughter is five and walks a block to her grandparent's house regularly (by herself, yes I know). In a few years, she will be walking to the corner store for basics or ice cream, or whatever. As for friend's parents, we live in a walkable urban neighborhood (we chose this), and yes, kids do this all the time. > My guess is probably not. And that’s not the kids’ doing— that’s OUR doing. It's parent's doing both because of their regulations. It's also parent's doing because parents choose to live in suburbia / pay a premium to do so. If parents paid premiums to live in dense urban neighborhoods, more would be built / development patterns would change. It's weird. As I said... we live in an inner city (we're 1.5 miles from downtown core of our west coast city). You'd think our streets were busy, but ... they're less busy than the suburban street I grew up in. Here's the difference.. in a city. Few people drive. There are certainly main thoroughfares that are very crowded (my kids are not allowed to cross the large streets themselves). But within our neighborhood, bounded by large streets, the streets are really tiny and there's few drivers. My house is actually quieter than the suburban street I grew up on. It's silent at night. Cars are the noise, not people. People are quiet. So that is to say... Yes it's parents fault. But parents are responding to their built environment, not any internal moral failing. The main issue is that parents are unable to understand the consequences of suburban living.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
NYC really isn't that unfriendly to kids: plenty of public transit to get places, lots of places to be a pedestrian, lots of things to do. In much of suburbia...where do you go? There isn't really much you can do until you are 15 or 16 and get a drivers license. I chose to live in a more urban area of Seattle (Ballard) because I want my now 1st grader to be able to do things when he is a bit older. Still not as nice as Tokyo, but it could be a lot worse if we lived further north or on the east side.
- ZhadruOmjar 3y ago
  Growing up in a suburban environment was pretty boring. Bikes made it a bit better because we could at least ride around the place but with no malls or activity zones (lakes/pools/forests etc) around it just meant that we wandered a lot.
  - kurthr 3y ago
    I feel like that's more true of ex-urbs. I lived in sububia and there were creeks, schools, pools, malls, a graveyard, train tracks, sport courts and churches, all within a 15-20min bike ride. Half of that was within a 15-20min walk, including the houses of half of my friends. "Downtown" was most of a mile walk and a 30-40min bus ride. Granted, it was old suburbia from the 50s-60s rather than new 90s builds, but there wasn't more than a 2 story building within a mile in any direction. It's still that way, only with more bike lanes and fewer kids outside.
    - HEmanZ 3y ago
      So usually people who talk about suburbs refer more to the sprawling burbs of like late 60s+. What you’re referring to sounds like a “streetcar suburb”, which urbanists usually like
      - jjav 3y ago
        I follow this debate often on HN and I've learned that those who say you can't walk or bike anywhere in a suburb are talking about areas I consider rural.
bradleyjg 3y ago
No pre-set plan, no parental supervision, just a “I’m going to go meet my friends on this summer day, I’ll be back before dinner.” For purposes of illustration, assume these kids are aged 9-14, or thereabouts. Too young to drive, too old to be doted over every minute of the day. What are the odds they would all sit around together, outside, on their phones?
- lotsoweiners 3y ago
  From my experience…very high.
orochimaaru 3y ago
Actually I would. My kid does this regularly. Last year both my kids and a bunch from around the neighborhood decided to walk back together. They had a roaring good time. School would release at 3. It would be 4 by the time they got back home after stops at the park, jumping across the small creek, etc etc. The big kids went off to middle school so they aren’t walking back anymore. But everyone of them still misses the walk back. The place where I’m at is surprisingly walkable at least in the 1.5 mile radius enough to get the kids to their local cafe or run errands. The 10 and above kids regularly take off on their own. The phones have location turned on anyway.
JJMcJ 3y ago
> “I’m going to go meet my friends on this summer day, I’ll be back before dinner.” The parents are practically committing a crime if they let their kids do this. > more kids . . . New York City Or any big city. Even in wealthy neighborhood. In the suburbs you almost never see kids outside without an adult present.
- maigret 3y ago
  > The parents are practically committing a crime if they let their kids do this. Not in the European countries I know
  - willcipriano 3y ago
    Or in the rural US.
- christophilus 3y ago
  My neighborhood has kids roaming freely through it. The little biker gangs are total hoodlums. For context, I’m in suburbia in South Carolina.
- rayiner 3y ago
  I’ve lived in wealthy neighborhoods in a bunch of cities (Atlanta, Chicago, New York City, Baltimore, DC) and you barely see kids period, much less ones running around unsupervised.
  - pastage 3y ago
    Less kids more people is interesting,
  - tptacek 3y ago
    They are absolutely everywhere in Chicago, running around everywhere unsupervised.
    - pvg 3y ago
rayiner 3y ago
Have you ever seen a kid under 14 without parents in New York City—whose parents are in an economic class where they could afford to live in the suburbs if they wanted? I certainly haven’t. It’s a class/culture issue rather than an urban planning issue. I grew up in a car-dependent suburb in the 1990s, and in the summer I used to spend all day roving around the neighborhood with the neighbor kids. Kids in the same suburb don’t do that today, because parents are more protective, kids are glued to screens, etc.
- tptacek 3y ago
  I can't speak to New York City, but certainly can to Chicago, where they are ubiquitous.
- shaldengeki 3y ago
  Yes, absolutely, in my neighborhood in Manhattan, all the time; it's honestly one of the most pleasant things about this place. They're usually in small groups, and almost never "glued to screens", for what it's worth. (I've seen the glued to screens thing, but usually when families are together.) Anecdotally, the people I have in my life who are the most afraid of leaving their kids alone are suburbanites.
landemva 3y ago
> No pre-set plan, no parental supervision Yes, and recently in USA. A handful of times I had a tinge of worry when they were gone much of the day, and they returned better than I could have planned it. One occasion I recall they hiked to a lake and had packed backpacks with lunches water sunscreen. It was my brain that worried, and a joy to watch the children grow and explore! The mother next door, apprehensive about rogue police, instructed her children that if they see the police to run home and don't stop. There is no recourse when the cops crack skulls, so it's best to stay out of their grip.
Aerbil313 3y ago
> And that’s not the kids’ doing— that’s OUR doing. If parents really wanted their kids to go outside and explore, that would be the norm. As a kid grown up in the smartphone era (I’m 18 now), these words of yours hurt my soul. Me and all of my friends are smartphone addicts. Everyone I know are using their smartphone as much as the rest of their life allows. But ofc, your brains are not messed up enough, so you don’t understand and you’re gonna just let your be consumed by it. Seriously, go read the works of the world-renowned psychologist Jonathan Haidt. https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/ https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/ I’m deeply sorry with every person whose life is literally wasted for that sweet $1/user/month ad money. I cannot express my sadness for the next generation who are literally born into it and grow up with YouTube Kids. Thank God at least I lived about 12 years of real life.

NegativeLatency 3y ago

There's currently a strike in Portland, and I've appreciated seeing kids out and about being little adults, taking the bus, etc, makes me really glad to live in city even with all the cars and noise.

yalestar 3y ago
I've noticed that too during this teachers' strike in Portland! It was really one of the most unexpectedly heartening things I've seen in a while.

wizerdrobe 3y ago

I’m trying to put this politely - I promise! There’s a world out there far and beyond whatever bubble you’re in. My daughter (6) can go out back on the playground or practice archery or whatever. My next-door neighbor (next-door in the original, pre-app sense) has a dirt bike track for his handful of kids (5+ and up) I’ve got all kinds of neighbors with kids doing all the old things we did pre-Black Mirror in the pocket. Don’t get me wrong, I FIGHT like a… expletive, with my kids about screen time to a degree that my folks and older siblings laugh about given I’m a self-taught teenage hacker. But kids and communities with “go do shit” old-er school norms exist outside of the big cities.

ricardobeat 3y ago
That sounds great! But have you considered that you may be the one living in a bubble? What you described is the exception, most people live in either sterile suburbs and small towns, or densely packed (and dangerous) cities. Space for a dirt track in your backyard is a pipe dream. Around the world, the closest to your description would be rural areas in less developed countries, which is also a small % of the population.
- lebean 3y ago
  Good point! Excuse me for interjecting here, but is it possible that you yourself are in a bubble of sorts?
  - codeTired 3y ago
    It’s bubbles all the way down.
- dalbasal 3y ago
  The bubble op referred to is not a particular place or lifestyle. The bubble, in this context, is the average/representative lifestyle and parenting depicted in lifestyle journalism/blogging space. The proverbial TED abstraction. Obviously physical circumstances are vary, but that didn't start in the smartphone era.
  - watwut 3y ago
    Yeah and the person with kids being allowed outside is the one living in a bubble in USA. And the people outside of his bubble do get really outraged over the idea that 7 years old could be outside without parent.
    - squigz 3y ago
      Lots of people handwaving about "bubbles" and making vast generalizations about massive populations. Is there any objective data to back these claims up? For what it's worth, I wouldn't claim either of the sides in this conversation are the norm; I know plenty of people who will let their kids run around, and plenty of people who wouldn't.

anon291 3y ago

My daughter is five and walks a block to her grandparent's house regularly (by herself, yes I know). In a few years, she will be walking to the corner store for basics or ice cream, or whatever. As for friend's parents, we live in a walkable urban neighborhood (we chose this), and yes, kids do this all the time. > My guess is probably not. And that’s not the kids’ doing— that’s OUR doing. It's parent's doing both because of their regulations. It's also parent's doing because parents choose to live in suburbia / pay a premium to do so. If parents paid premiums to live in dense urban neighborhoods, more would be built / development patterns would change. It's weird. As I said... we live in an inner city (we're 1.5 miles from downtown core of our west coast city). You'd think our streets were busy, but ... they're less busy than the suburban street I grew up in. Here's the difference.. in a city. Few people drive. There are certainly main thoroughfares that are very crowded (my kids are not allowed to cross the large streets themselves). But within our neighborhood, bounded by large streets, the streets are really tiny and there's few drivers. My house is actually quieter than the suburban street I grew up on. It's silent at night. Cars are the noise, not people. People are quiet. So that is to say... Yes it's parents fault. But parents are responding to their built environment, not any internal moral failing. The main issue is that parents are unable to understand the consequences of suburban living.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

NYC really isn't that unfriendly to kids: plenty of public transit to get places, lots of places to be a pedestrian, lots of things to do. In much of suburbia...where do you go? There isn't really much you can do until you are 15 or 16 and get a drivers license. I chose to live in a more urban area of Seattle (Ballard) because I want my now 1st grader to be able to do things when he is a bit older. Still not as nice as Tokyo, but it could be a lot worse if we lived further north or on the east side.

ZhadruOmjar 3y ago
Growing up in a suburban environment was pretty boring. Bikes made it a bit better because we could at least ride around the place but with no malls or activity zones (lakes/pools/forests etc) around it just meant that we wandered a lot.
- kurthr 3y ago
  I feel like that's more true of ex-urbs. I lived in sububia and there were creeks, schools, pools, malls, a graveyard, train tracks, sport courts and churches, all within a 15-20min bike ride. Half of that was within a 15-20min walk, including the houses of half of my friends. "Downtown" was most of a mile walk and a 30-40min bus ride. Granted, it was old suburbia from the 50s-60s rather than new 90s builds, but there wasn't more than a 2 story building within a mile in any direction. It's still that way, only with more bike lanes and fewer kids outside.
  - HEmanZ 3y ago
    So usually people who talk about suburbs refer more to the sprawling burbs of like late 60s+. What you’re referring to sounds like a “streetcar suburb”, which urbanists usually like
    - jjav 3y ago
      I follow this debate often on HN and I've learned that those who say you can't walk or bike anywhere in a suburb are talking about areas I consider rural.

bradleyjg 3y ago

No pre-set plan, no parental supervision, just a “I’m going to go meet my friends on this summer day, I’ll be back before dinner.” For purposes of illustration, assume these kids are aged 9-14, or thereabouts. Too young to drive, too old to be doted over every minute of the day. What are the odds they would all sit around together, outside, on their phones?

lotsoweiners 3y ago
From my experience…very high.

orochimaaru 3y ago

Actually I would. My kid does this regularly. Last year both my kids and a bunch from around the neighborhood decided to walk back together. They had a roaring good time. School would release at 3. It would be 4 by the time they got back home after stops at the park, jumping across the small creek, etc etc. The big kids went off to middle school so they aren’t walking back anymore. But everyone of them still misses the walk back. The place where I’m at is surprisingly walkable at least in the 1.5 mile radius enough to get the kids to their local cafe or run errands. The 10 and above kids regularly take off on their own. The phones have location turned on anyway.

JJMcJ 3y ago

> “I’m going to go meet my friends on this summer day, I’ll be back before dinner.” The parents are practically committing a crime if they let their kids do this. > more kids . . . New York City Or any big city. Even in wealthy neighborhood. In the suburbs you almost never see kids outside without an adult present.

maigret 3y ago
> The parents are practically committing a crime if they let their kids do this. Not in the European countries I know
- willcipriano 3y ago
  Or in the rural US.
christophilus 3y ago
My neighborhood has kids roaming freely through it. The little biker gangs are total hoodlums. For context, I’m in suburbia in South Carolina.
rayiner 3y ago
I’ve lived in wealthy neighborhoods in a bunch of cities (Atlanta, Chicago, New York City, Baltimore, DC) and you barely see kids period, much less ones running around unsupervised.
- pastage 3y ago
  Less kids more people is interesting,
- tptacek 3y ago
  They are absolutely everywhere in Chicago, running around everywhere unsupervised.
  - pvg 3y ago

rayiner 3y ago

Have you ever seen a kid under 14 without parents in New York City—whose parents are in an economic class where they could afford to live in the suburbs if they wanted? I certainly haven’t. It’s a class/culture issue rather than an urban planning issue. I grew up in a car-dependent suburb in the 1990s, and in the summer I used to spend all day roving around the neighborhood with the neighbor kids. Kids in the same suburb don’t do that today, because parents are more protective, kids are glued to screens, etc.

tptacek 3y ago
I can't speak to New York City, but certainly can to Chicago, where they are ubiquitous.
shaldengeki 3y ago
Yes, absolutely, in my neighborhood in Manhattan, all the time; it's honestly one of the most pleasant things about this place. They're usually in small groups, and almost never "glued to screens", for what it's worth. (I've seen the glued to screens thing, but usually when families are together.) Anecdotally, the people I have in my life who are the most afraid of leaving their kids alone are suburbanites.

landemva 3y ago

> No pre-set plan, no parental supervision Yes, and recently in USA. A handful of times I had a tinge of worry when they were gone much of the day, and they returned better than I could have planned it. One occasion I recall they hiked to a lake and had packed backpacks with lunches water sunscreen. It was my brain that worried, and a joy to watch the children grow and explore! The mother next door, apprehensive about rogue police, instructed her children that if they see the police to run home and don't stop. There is no recourse when the cops crack skulls, so it's best to stay out of their grip.

Aerbil313 3y ago

> And that’s not the kids’ doing— that’s OUR doing. If parents really wanted their kids to go outside and explore, that would be the norm. As a kid grown up in the smartphone era (I’m 18 now), these words of yours hurt my soul. Me and all of my friends are smartphone addicts. Everyone I know are using their smartphone as much as the rest of their life allows. But ofc, your brains are not messed up enough, so you don’t understand and you’re gonna just let your be consumed by it. Seriously, go read the works of the world-renowned psychologist Jonathan Haidt. https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/ https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/ I’m deeply sorry with every person whose life is literally wasted for that sweet $1/user/month ad money. I cannot express my sadness for the next generation who are literally born into it and grow up with YouTube Kids. Thank God at least I lived about 12 years of real life.