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Artificial scarcity? Maybe. There aren't but so many households with children that fit inside the venn diagram of can afford med school, has the intellectual ca

Artificial scarcity? Maybe. There aren't but so many households with children that fit inside the venn diagram of can afford med school, has the intellectual capacity and bloody-mindedness to actually finish med school, and is interested in going to med school.

skohan 3y ago
Yes and no. No doubt the medical profession requires talent and rigor, but I think to some extent the hurdles which are placed in front of students who want to become doctors are artificially high to help justify the small number of graduates medical schools put out, which protects the artificially high salaries. For instance, if you read up on the frankly cruel residency process which doctors are forced to clear in the US, the insane hours are in large part because one of the doctors who was influential in shaping the current practice was an abuser of stimulants. So I think it's a bit of a "just so" story to assume that the version of the medical profession we have is the best possible version. And indeed Cuba is a good counter-example to your argument. Unless Cubans are just a lot more clever and resilient on average than Americans for example.
- forgetfreeman 3y ago
  Yeah I'm not convinced. I've worked adjacent to the healthcare and pharma industries most of my adult life and I can tell you the complexity of the human body beggars belief. You aren't going to run the equivalent of a coding bootcamp for healthcare and get good results.
  - skohan 3y ago
    Not all of medicine is dealing with the full complexity of the human body. A lot of it is applying wrote knowledge to essentially follow a flow-chart to map a set of symptoms and details about the patient to a diagnostic / treatment plan. Doctors are trained to not deviate from medical orthodoxy, and for instance it's been studied that if doctors are told another doctor has already come to a given conclusion about a diagnosis, there is a strong effect that they will confirm the diagnosis even in the face of contravening evidence. I.e. I don't need "Dr House" to tell me to take 2 and call him in the morning. There is a whole large swath of routine medicine which AI could probably do. And I am happy if you and your family have been lucky to be blessed with good health and good care, but many people have experienced having a mysterious medical condition, and going to several doctors or waiting months before it can be properly diagnosed. Human medicine is far from perfect.
    - forgetfreeman 3y ago
      Yeah. Would you like to review a graph over time of medical outcomes in the US based on this approach to healthcare (we see you minute clinic)? Hint: there's a reason we consistently rank dead last when compared to other industrialized nations.
RecycledEle 3y ago
> There aren't but so many households with children that fit inside the venn diagram of can afford med school, has the intellectual capacity and bloody-mindedness to actually finish med school, and is interested in going to med school. That is the artificial scarcity he was referring to. There is no reason to lump all medicine together in a MD degree /certification. Why not have one certification for each common problem?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- forgetfreeman 3y ago
  Why not? Symptom overlap springs to mind. Both anxiety and reflux can present 90% of the common symptoms of a heart attack. Get a reflux specialist when what you needed was a cardiologist and you're fucked. Labor costs also spring to mind. I can only imagine the look on some hospital administrator's face when the proposal to triple headcount comes across their desk.
  - skohan 3y ago
    Presumably you would structure such a medical system such that lower level practitioners would know enough to know when to escalate to an MD. 90% of medicine is stuff like people going to the doctor with the flu to get a sick note to stay home from work and instructions to rest and drink fluids. I don't think you need an MD for that.
    - nradov 3y ago
      We already have that structure to an extent. Much primary care for minor problems is delivered by a PA or NP. They are trained to escalate to an MD when necessary, although due to lack of training sometimes they miss things that an MD would have caught.
      - skohan 3y ago
        > due to lack of training sometimes they miss things that an MD would have caught. It goes the other way as well. My aunt is an RN and she loves to tell the story about the time that a doctor was in such a rush one time she had to call his attention to the fact that his patient was dead.
nradov 3y ago
Sending more students to medical school wouldn't help. Every year there are already students who graduate with an MD but are unable to practice because they don't get matched to a residency program. The first thing we need to do is get Congress to increase Medicare funding for graduate medical education programs (or find another way of funding those). https://savegme.org/ https://savegme.org/
mecha_ghidorah 3y ago
< can afford med school I mean arguably subsidizing med school would be a pretty sensible thing for a government to do if it wanted to increase the number of doctors. The other elements of the venn diagram can't be modified I agree, but affordability of med school doesn't have to be there

skohan 3y ago

Yes and no. No doubt the medical profession requires talent and rigor, but I think to some extent the hurdles which are placed in front of students who want to become doctors are artificially high to help justify the small number of graduates medical schools put out, which protects the artificially high salaries. For instance, if you read up on the frankly cruel residency process which doctors are forced to clear in the US, the insane hours are in large part because one of the doctors who was influential in shaping the current practice was an abuser of stimulants. So I think it's a bit of a "just so" story to assume that the version of the medical profession we have is the best possible version. And indeed Cuba is a good counter-example to your argument. Unless Cubans are just a lot more clever and resilient on average than Americans for example.

forgetfreeman 3y ago
Yeah I'm not convinced. I've worked adjacent to the healthcare and pharma industries most of my adult life and I can tell you the complexity of the human body beggars belief. You aren't going to run the equivalent of a coding bootcamp for healthcare and get good results.
- skohan 3y ago
  Not all of medicine is dealing with the full complexity of the human body. A lot of it is applying wrote knowledge to essentially follow a flow-chart to map a set of symptoms and details about the patient to a diagnostic / treatment plan. Doctors are trained to not deviate from medical orthodoxy, and for instance it's been studied that if doctors are told another doctor has already come to a given conclusion about a diagnosis, there is a strong effect that they will confirm the diagnosis even in the face of contravening evidence. I.e. I don't need "Dr House" to tell me to take 2 and call him in the morning. There is a whole large swath of routine medicine which AI could probably do. And I am happy if you and your family have been lucky to be blessed with good health and good care, but many people have experienced having a mysterious medical condition, and going to several doctors or waiting months before it can be properly diagnosed. Human medicine is far from perfect.
  - forgetfreeman 3y ago
    Yeah. Would you like to review a graph over time of medical outcomes in the US based on this approach to healthcare (we see you minute clinic)? Hint: there's a reason we consistently rank dead last when compared to other industrialized nations.

RecycledEle 3y ago

> There aren't but so many households with children that fit inside the venn diagram of can afford med school, has the intellectual capacity and bloody-mindedness to actually finish med school, and is interested in going to med school. That is the artificial scarcity he was referring to. There is no reason to lump all medicine together in a MD degree /certification. Why not have one certification for each common problem?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
forgetfreeman 3y ago
Why not? Symptom overlap springs to mind. Both anxiety and reflux can present 90% of the common symptoms of a heart attack. Get a reflux specialist when what you needed was a cardiologist and you're fucked. Labor costs also spring to mind. I can only imagine the look on some hospital administrator's face when the proposal to triple headcount comes across their desk.
- skohan 3y ago
  Presumably you would structure such a medical system such that lower level practitioners would know enough to know when to escalate to an MD. 90% of medicine is stuff like people going to the doctor with the flu to get a sick note to stay home from work and instructions to rest and drink fluids. I don't think you need an MD for that.
  - nradov 3y ago
    We already have that structure to an extent. Much primary care for minor problems is delivered by a PA or NP. They are trained to escalate to an MD when necessary, although due to lack of training sometimes they miss things that an MD would have caught.
    - skohan 3y ago
      > due to lack of training sometimes they miss things that an MD would have caught. It goes the other way as well. My aunt is an RN and she loves to tell the story about the time that a doctor was in such a rush one time she had to call his attention to the fact that his patient was dead.

nradov 3y ago

Sending more students to medical school wouldn't help. Every year there are already students who graduate with an MD but are unable to practice because they don't get matched to a residency program. The first thing we need to do is get Congress to increase Medicare funding for graduate medical education programs (or find another way of funding those). https://savegme.org/ https://savegme.org/

mecha_ghidorah 3y ago

< can afford med school I mean arguably subsidizing med school would be a pretty sensible thing for a government to do if it wanted to increase the number of doctors. The other elements of the venn diagram can't be modified I agree, but affordability of med school doesn't have to be there