5 ms·

It is probably smart to keep around a certain capacity of nonrenewables to provide at least some base load. Long periods of low sunshine and slow winds could de

by samus 3y ago

It is probably smart to keep around a certain capacity of nonrenewables to provide at least some base load. Long periods of low sunshine and slow winds could deplete batteries to a critical level. Also, the turbines of big powerplants act as grid frequency stabilizer. Do grid-scale batteries use alternators or might they run flywheels?

marcosdumay 3y ago
It's quite likely that in the future electricity sellers will need to pay a tariff to cover the operation of flywheels.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  Not sure why the cost would be borne by sellers. More likely consumers will pay for it as part of the grid infrastructure in my opinion.
  - marcosdumay 3y ago
    Well, currently the sellers are the ones directly paying for the grid infrastructure. It makes much more sense. They are the ones that can choose what part of the grid they plug on, and they are the ones choosing if they provide the service or not.
    - s1artibartfast 3y ago
      I dont think I agree. Typically electric companies pay for the grid infrastructure and operation currently. Electricity producers like solar plants out in the desert is not paying to maintain the poles to your house.
      - marcosdumay 3y ago
        Retail electricity companies pay only for their own grid. They aren't paying for the link between your city and the plant out in the desert.
        s1artibartfast 3y ago
        maybe we have a difference in terminology. The interconnects between the grid and primary producers are often owned an managed by the retail company. Who pays for them is often a sticking point and can go both ways. What I think is indisputable is that it is the retail electric company who manages and maintains their grid, and manages it's demand and stability. >sellers are the ones directly paying for the grid infrastructure. This is absolutely not the case for the vast majority of that infrastructure. You just mentioned small connections. If you look at the grid, it is basically all retail companies[1] https://www.researchgate.net/figure/California-electric-grid-and-population-map_fig1_256704694 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/California-electric-grid...
        15457345234 3y ago
        You're using American-centric terminology that doesn't translate well to other countries, most of which have one national grid company that manages the transmission grid (which extends up to the generation facilities) and where 'retail companies' refers to local distributors who may operate their own distribution networks or who may just handle billing etc.
Enogoloyo 3y ago
I believe they just switch on and off fast enough. Tesla power wall does that.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Yes, but the rest of the grid can not, except for some forms of hydro, flywheels, superconducting coils and grid scale batteries. They hydro has a fastest rate of change of about 1 minute from zero to full load and a bit slower to go back again and batteries can more-or-less match renewables for rate of change. The superconductor solution is the fastest but also the most expensive per KWh of storage. In the time before renewables all of the rate-of-change limitations came from sudden increases or decreases in consumption, never from the supply side and this has subtle implications for the structure of the power grid and how much power companies can do to control the match between the two. Think of it as a person walking across a rope with a balancing pole: you can overbalance for a short while because you can correct for that with the mass of the pole. But if the overbalance is too large for the mass of the pole then you will inevitably fall (brownout, blackout).
  - fmajid 3y ago
    "Superconductor solution": did you mean "supercapacitor solution"?
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      No, superconductor. Effectively an electronic version of the flywheel. There is a company in the United States that has been making these for almost 20 years now, they are used for ride-through in hospitals and for windfarm output stabilization. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconducting_magnetic_energy_storage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconducting_magnetic_energ... https://www.amsc.com/gridtec/renewable-interconnectivity-solutions/ https://www.amsc.com/gridtec/renewable-interconnectivity-sol... Enjoy the read. It's interesting stuff.
      - fmajid 3y ago
Maxion 3y ago
One of the biggest challenges with renewable energy in energy grids is something called inertia. Her's a nice article: https://www.fingridlehti.fi/en/what-is-inertia/ https://www.fingridlehti.fi/en/what-is-inertia/
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
VaxWithSex 3y ago
Batteries can and are used for frequency stabilization, yes. https://www.pv-magazine.com/2022/07/27/tesla-big-battery-begins-providing-inertia-grid-services-at-scale-in-world-first-in-australia/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2022/07/27/tesla-big-battery-beg...
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Superconducting coils as well. Those are popular near windfarms due to their fast response time, both on the uptake as the release.
gwbas1c 3y ago
Inverters have come a long way in the past few years. They are at the point where they are (subjectively) better than giant flywheels.
wolpoli 3y ago
It doesn't necessarily need to be non-renewables through. There just has to be spare capacity that the grid could count on being there. There just needs to be a way for the grid to pay for the capacity that's going to go unused a lot of times, whether it's batteries, extra water and turbine in a dam, or standby power plants.

by samus 3y ago

marcosdumay 3y ago

It's quite likely that in the future electricity sellers will need to pay a tariff to cover the operation of flywheels.

s1artibartfast 3y ago
Not sure why the cost would be borne by sellers. More likely consumers will pay for it as part of the grid infrastructure in my opinion.
- marcosdumay 3y ago
  Well, currently the sellers are the ones directly paying for the grid infrastructure. It makes much more sense. They are the ones that can choose what part of the grid they plug on, and they are the ones choosing if they provide the service or not.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    I dont think I agree. Typically electric companies pay for the grid infrastructure and operation currently. Electricity producers like solar plants out in the desert is not paying to maintain the poles to your house.
    - marcosdumay 3y ago
      Retail electricity companies pay only for their own grid. They aren't paying for the link between your city and the plant out in the desert.
      - s1artibartfast 3y ago
        maybe we have a difference in terminology. The interconnects between the grid and primary producers are often owned an managed by the retail company. Who pays for them is often a sticking point and can go both ways. What I think is indisputable is that it is the retail electric company who manages and maintains their grid, and manages it's demand and stability. >sellers are the ones directly paying for the grid infrastructure. This is absolutely not the case for the vast majority of that infrastructure. You just mentioned small connections. If you look at the grid, it is basically all retail companies[1] https://www.researchgate.net/figure/California-electric-grid-and-population-map_fig1_256704694 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/California-electric-grid...
        15457345234 3y ago
        You're using American-centric terminology that doesn't translate well to other countries, most of which have one national grid company that manages the transmission grid (which extends up to the generation facilities) and where 'retail companies' refers to local distributors who may operate their own distribution networks or who may just handle billing etc.

Enogoloyo 3y ago

I believe they just switch on and off fast enough. Tesla power wall does that.

jacquesm 3y ago
Yes, but the rest of the grid can not, except for some forms of hydro, flywheels, superconducting coils and grid scale batteries. They hydro has a fastest rate of change of about 1 minute from zero to full load and a bit slower to go back again and batteries can more-or-less match renewables for rate of change. The superconductor solution is the fastest but also the most expensive per KWh of storage. In the time before renewables all of the rate-of-change limitations came from sudden increases or decreases in consumption, never from the supply side and this has subtle implications for the structure of the power grid and how much power companies can do to control the match between the two. Think of it as a person walking across a rope with a balancing pole: you can overbalance for a short while because you can correct for that with the mass of the pole. But if the overbalance is too large for the mass of the pole then you will inevitably fall (brownout, blackout).
- fmajid 3y ago
  "Superconductor solution": did you mean "supercapacitor solution"?
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    No, superconductor. Effectively an electronic version of the flywheel. There is a company in the United States that has been making these for almost 20 years now, they are used for ride-through in hospitals and for windfarm output stabilization. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconducting_magnetic_energy_storage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconducting_magnetic_energ... https://www.amsc.com/gridtec/renewable-interconnectivity-solutions/ https://www.amsc.com/gridtec/renewable-interconnectivity-sol... Enjoy the read. It's interesting stuff.
    - fmajid 3y ago

Maxion 3y ago

One of the biggest challenges with renewable energy in energy grids is something called inertia. Her's a nice article: https://www.fingridlehti.fi/en/what-is-inertia/ https://www.fingridlehti.fi/en/what-is-inertia/

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

VaxWithSex 3y ago

Batteries can and are used for frequency stabilization, yes. https://www.pv-magazine.com/2022/07/27/tesla-big-battery-begins-providing-inertia-grid-services-at-scale-in-world-first-in-australia/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2022/07/27/tesla-big-battery-beg...

jacquesm 3y ago
Superconducting coils as well. Those are popular near windfarms due to their fast response time, both on the uptake as the release.

gwbas1c 3y ago

Inverters have come a long way in the past few years. They are at the point where they are (subjectively) better than giant flywheels.

wolpoli 3y ago

It doesn't necessarily need to be non-renewables through. There just has to be spare capacity that the grid could count on being there. There just needs to be a way for the grid to pay for the capacity that's going to go unused a lot of times, whether it's batteries, extra water and turbine in a dam, or standby power plants.