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What are the advantages of sodium batteries? Since batteries involve the migration of ions between electrodes, the much larger size of sodium ions means that t
by torginus 3y ago
What are the advantages of sodium batteries?
Since batteries involve the migration of ions between electrodes, the much larger size of sodium ions means that the resulting batteries will be both less dense and have less charge cycles than their lithium counterparts, due to the higher volumetric electrode deformation during charging.
This makes them suboptimal for both grid and mobile applications, and the only use case I can see for them is making very cheap disposable stuff, which does not bode well for the environment.
- kzrdude 3y agoSodium is easier to find
- torginus 3y agoYeah, but lithium isn't exactly rare either.
- raverbashing 3y agoActually not at the rates we're predicted to use it, no And yes Sodium is fine for most applications where it can be a little heavier (grid uses, maybe cars) which is where most of it is projected to be needed.
- jvm___ 3y agohttps://www.reddit.com/r/coolguides/s/Co4zeAhcmT https://www.reddit.com/r/coolguides/s/Co4zeAhcmT Here's how much of everything we mined in 2022. Lithium is bottom left corner just above Gold.
- varjag 3y agoSince Li kg price is not anywhere near to that of gold, the production is likely demand-constrained.
- oddmiral 3y agoLithium price jumped 6x in 2020-2022. https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2023/trends-in-batteries https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2023/trends-in...
- ranting-moth 3y agoWhich production (save for byproducts) today isn't demand constrained?
- xxs 3y agoBut cobalt is (which is the basis of the 'classic' Li-Ion). Of course, LiFePO4 doesn't require it.
- drtgh 3y agoLithium is abundant, as are other "rare earths" (they are not rare), but the problem is that they are quite scattered and to extract them nowadays requires to process very large areas of land through chemical reactions (additives and evaporation).
- Tagbert 3y agoto be clear, lithium is not a rare earth.
- victorbjorklund 3y agoCompared to what? Sodium?
- culi 3y agoI hope this doesn't come off as combatative, but I don't know why people keep repeating this fun fact from their highschool chemistry class as if it's relevant to the discussion. Per a 2023 Nature article: https://www.nature.com/articles/s43017-022-00387-5 https://www.nature.com/articles/s43017-022-00387-5 > The locations of suitable continental brines are also geographically restricted, with an estimated 50–85% of lithium-rich continental brine deposits located in the Lithium Triangle and with China as the next richest source. Hard-rock ores are also geographically concentrated in Australia and China Lithium in a form that is economical to mine/process is indeed quite rare. Which is why 3 countries produce 90% of it. And it is extremely environmentally costly which is treated as an economic externality. It takes 1.9m litres to mine one ton of lithium and solvent chemicals like hydrochloric acid contaminates groundwater, making the entire site toxic and unlivable. Entire governments have been overthrown for access to this resource.
- anonuser123456 3y agoLithium mines are hard to build (capital intensive, permitting, water availability), and there aren’t enough to satisfy demand.
- xbmcuser 3y agosodium batteries are safer as well when it comes to fire and explosion etc
- lazide 3y agoMetallic sodium is quite reactive?
- Aardwolf 3y agoFrom reading the comments, seems like it would be useful for battery power storage in the home (since it's cheaper and safer, and weight doesn't matter), but not great for a car yet (since it weighs more)
- torginus 3y agoNot that good for storage either, because of lower cycles than Lithium (which is already low anyway)
- lazide 3y agoHuh? 5k cycles is huge?
- ranting-moth 3y agoIt's a daily recharge for over 13 years. I don't remember having a battery lasting that long.
- lazide 3y agoYup. LiFePo batteries are now starting to have lifetimes that long (or longer), but they haven’t been in the field for long enough that people can notice yet.
- jillesvangurp 3y agoUpsides: Cheap, safe, no hard to source materials. Relatively high amount of cycles (> 5000). Downsides: somewhat low energy density, somewhat less efficient. CATL has been producing sodium ion batteries for some time. I think most of those so far end up in cheap Chinese EVs. Relatively few of those have found their way to the European or North American markets yet. Part of the reason is probably the lack of sodium ion battery factories outside of China (so far). It looks like Northvolt is looking to change that. It's competing with LFP and other battery chemistries. You'd use these mainly for cheap cars and possibly for grid storage.
- margalabargala 3y agoAnother major benefit, you can charge them with no issues down to single digit F temperatures. Charging a lithium battery that is below freezing destroys the battery.
- twobitshifter 3y agoPrice, number of cycles, weight, and temperature are the advantages as far as I remember.
- twobitshifter 3y agomaybe not weight.
- fulafel 3y agoIn the majority of applications outside consumer electronics, the bottleneck problem with Li-Ion batteries is their cost and manufacturing resource intensity. We're lacking cheaper and easier to mfg options compromising on some qualities.