4 ms·

What a confusingly-written article. The 1:1 case is not too unreasonable, if you ask me. Store a cryptographically signed photo on a chip in the ID card, and t

by crote 3y ago

What a confusingly-written article. The 1:1 case is not too unreasonable, if you ask me. Store a cryptographically signed photo on a chip in the ID card, and the machine can compare that to the real-life human presented. There are obviously drawbacks with biases in the comparison algorithm, but that's not really any worse than a human doing the same. From a privacy perspective it's not too bad - provided they delete their copy of the photo after the card is issued. This isn't any different from having the photo printed on the ID card, if you ask me. The 1:many case, on the other hand, is a bit of a problem. This requires the creation of a mass database with everyone's pictures in it. The privacy implications are obviously enormous, as it would also enable the identification of previously-anonymous people "in the wild". And then there's obviously the issue that it simply cannot possibly work on a larger scale: with a 1:1 comparison you have to look for a close-enough match of a single picture pair, but with a 1:many comparison you have to identify one person out of millions of possible matches. There needs to be some lenience in the matching (people use makeup and get rhinoplasties) but people's faces already look quite similar - once you get to the million-people scale, there are pretty much guaranteed to be some false positive matches in there!

kevin_thibedeau 3y ago
... then they came for my doppelganger and there was no one to implicate me.
chkaloon 3y ago
TSA presumably can narrow down the search space to the people with tickets at that airport for that day
- dietr1ch 3y ago
  My concerns here are not about the search cost, but about holding everyone's data.
  - chkaloon 3y ago
    "And then there's obviously the issue that it simply cannot possibly work on a larger scale: with a 1:1 comparison you have to look for a close-enough match of a single picture pair, but with a 1:many comparison you have to identify one person out of millions of possible matches. "
patmorgan23 3y ago
"From a privacy perspective it's not too bad - provided they delete their copy of the photo after the card is issued. This isn't any different from having the photo printed on the ID card, if you ask me." If you have a government ID they already have your picture in a database. I know for a fact this is true if you have a US passport and I would be shocked if each state doesn't have a database with all Drivers License/state ID pictures.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  I can get my license reissued with my old photo as long as it’s within X number of years. This was handy during COVID when renewing entirely by mail was rolled out, but I also did it on a prior license renewal as well. I’m generally opposed to government intrusion on rights, but I don’t think I have the inherent right for the government to have no photos of me. I’m sure the Dept of State, Customs/Border Patrol, and my local motor vehicles dept has my photo on file.
  - phpisthebest 3y ago
    >> I don’t think I have the inherent right for the government to have no photos of me. Why? The government should have no info on you at all unless and until they have an articulable reason to suspect you to be in violation of the law. Then they should only be allowed to retain data about for the duration of your criminal history (which could be for life ) Customs and Border patrol should not even be allowed to ask you any questions or stop you at all upon reentry to the country unless again they have a clear and articulable reason to believe you are in violation for the law same with the TSA. the fact that we have allowed general "detainment" in the name of safety was the start of the slippery slope that they continue to advance further and further to more or less cancel all 4th and 5th amendment protections to the point now where those protections basically do not exist with in a 100 miles of any border which is like 80% of the nation. it is absurd to simply accept this as normal, and inline with individual freedom. it is not
    - lmm 3y ago
      > Customs and Border patrol should not even be allowed to ask you any questions or stop you at all upon reentry to the country unless again they have a clear and articulable reason to believe you are in violation for the law > same with the TSA. > the fact that we have allowed general "detainment" in the name of safety was the start of the slippery slope that they continue to advance further and further to more or less cancel all 4th and 5th amendment protections to the point now where those protections basically do not exist with in a 100 miles of any border which is like 80% of the nation. I agree with all that, but I still don't see how that leads to your claim. > Why? The government should have no info on you at all unless and until they have an articulable reason to suspect you to be in violation of the law. Then they should only be allowed to retain data about for the duration of your criminal history (which could be for life ) Why? It's normal for other people to remember what you look like, it's normal for your local government workers (who are likely the only ones for whom it matters) to remember what you look like, what people look like isn't secret.
closeparen 3y ago
The mass database with everyone's pictures in it is called the DMV. It was created decades ago; we don't need to engage in speculation about what it "would" do.
- thayne 3y ago
  There is not a single DMV. Every state has its own DMV with its own database.
  - chaps 3y ago
    Yes, and many of those DMVs share those photos with upstream agencies, which reduces the problem.
    - tgfrr 3y ago
      My DMV literally sells the data to whoever.
collegeburner 3y ago
i should probably flesh out my reasoning more on this but i think we should preserve the ability for people to do wrong rather than trying to box it out. practically, it functions as a useful last resort of the system is very screwed up and we can probably punish noncompliance in other cases. i think if we successfully remove the ability for people to break laws, regardless of whether it's done in a "privacy-preserving" way, that would be bad. but then again i'm against the feds knowing who anyone is so i'm probably biased.

by crote 3y ago

kevin_thibedeau 3y ago

... then they came for my doppelganger and there was no one to implicate me.

chkaloon 3y ago

TSA presumably can narrow down the search space to the people with tickets at that airport for that day

dietr1ch 3y ago
My concerns here are not about the search cost, but about holding everyone's data.
- chkaloon 3y ago
  "And then there's obviously the issue that it simply cannot possibly work on a larger scale: with a 1:1 comparison you have to look for a close-enough match of a single picture pair, but with a 1:many comparison you have to identify one person out of millions of possible matches. "

patmorgan23 3y ago

"From a privacy perspective it's not too bad - provided they delete their copy of the photo after the card is issued. This isn't any different from having the photo printed on the ID card, if you ask me." If you have a government ID they already have your picture in a database. I know for a fact this is true if you have a US passport and I would be shocked if each state doesn't have a database with all Drivers License/state ID pictures.

sokoloff 3y ago
I can get my license reissued with my old photo as long as it’s within X number of years. This was handy during COVID when renewing entirely by mail was rolled out, but I also did it on a prior license renewal as well. I’m generally opposed to government intrusion on rights, but I don’t think I have the inherent right for the government to have no photos of me. I’m sure the Dept of State, Customs/Border Patrol, and my local motor vehicles dept has my photo on file.
- phpisthebest 3y ago
  >> I don’t think I have the inherent right for the government to have no photos of me. Why? The government should have no info on you at all unless and until they have an articulable reason to suspect you to be in violation of the law. Then they should only be allowed to retain data about for the duration of your criminal history (which could be for life ) Customs and Border patrol should not even be allowed to ask you any questions or stop you at all upon reentry to the country unless again they have a clear and articulable reason to believe you are in violation for the law same with the TSA. the fact that we have allowed general "detainment" in the name of safety was the start of the slippery slope that they continue to advance further and further to more or less cancel all 4th and 5th amendment protections to the point now where those protections basically do not exist with in a 100 miles of any border which is like 80% of the nation. it is absurd to simply accept this as normal, and inline with individual freedom. it is not
  - lmm 3y ago
    > Customs and Border patrol should not even be allowed to ask you any questions or stop you at all upon reentry to the country unless again they have a clear and articulable reason to believe you are in violation for the law > same with the TSA. > the fact that we have allowed general "detainment" in the name of safety was the start of the slippery slope that they continue to advance further and further to more or less cancel all 4th and 5th amendment protections to the point now where those protections basically do not exist with in a 100 miles of any border which is like 80% of the nation. I agree with all that, but I still don't see how that leads to your claim. > Why? The government should have no info on you at all unless and until they have an articulable reason to suspect you to be in violation of the law. Then they should only be allowed to retain data about for the duration of your criminal history (which could be for life ) Why? It's normal for other people to remember what you look like, it's normal for your local government workers (who are likely the only ones for whom it matters) to remember what you look like, what people look like isn't secret.

closeparen 3y ago

The mass database with everyone's pictures in it is called the DMV. It was created decades ago; we don't need to engage in speculation about what it "would" do.

thayne 3y ago
There is not a single DMV. Every state has its own DMV with its own database.
- chaps 3y ago
  Yes, and many of those DMVs share those photos with upstream agencies, which reduces the problem.
  - tgfrr 3y ago
    My DMV literally sells the data to whoever.

collegeburner 3y ago

i should probably flesh out my reasoning more on this but i think we should preserve the ability for people to do wrong rather than trying to box it out. practically, it functions as a useful last resort of the system is very screwed up and we can probably punish noncompliance in other cases. i think if we successfully remove the ability for people to break laws, regardless of whether it's done in a "privacy-preserving" way, that would be bad. but then again i'm against the feds knowing who anyone is so i'm probably biased.