5 ms·

Luckily, it doesn't matter what individuals expect. There is written documentation on what the foundation is supposed to do or not to do: https://github.com/mat

Luckily, it doesn't matter what individuals expect. There is written documentation on what the foundation is supposed to do or not to do: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/blob/main/proposals/1779-open-governance.md https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/blob/mai... Notably, "Code Core Team members must arrange their own funding for their time", which I understand as such that the Foundation does not pay directly the developers (same as other standards organizations like IETF). That said, if it was decided that developers get paid by Matrix.org Foundation for developing Matrix.org clients and servers, I wonder how this process works, given that I highly doubt that developers of Conduit, Fractal or Quaternion received any of the funds of Matrix.org foundation. Main tasks of Matrix.org Foundation is maintaining the spec, documentation, owning IP, promotion and the matrix.org home server. The home server is "generously hosted" by UpCloud (i.e. is not using New Vector EMS), at least according to the matrix.org website. Looking again at MSC1779, I noticed it says that one function of The Matrix.org Foundation is "Owns the copyright of the reference implementations of Matrix (i.e. everything in https://github.com/matrix-org https://github.com/matrix-org). By assigning copyright to the Foundation, it’s protected against New Vector ever being tempted to relicense it." That protection apparently wasn't very effective, but also notably, New Vector and their leadership clearly have shown to not stand behind the goals of the Foundation. As the leadership of New Vector is also part of the leadership of the Foundation, I see some huge potential for COI here.

EarlKing 3y ago
Without looking at how this organization works, let me clarify: a 501(c)(3) cannot be paying for software development insofar as this constitutes Product Development. Product Development is outside the scope of charitable work and, if caught, would open them up to back taxes on those 'charitable' contributions plus fines. This is not something that applies just to Matrix, but to the Free Software Foundation for that matter. Not one fucking dime you give them ever goes to software development, and the fact that they don't make this clear upfront given the obvious misunderstanding on the part of the public and what they think they're funding, is fraudulent. TL;DR Donations to 501(c)(3)'s managing open source projects might as well be lit on fire because they do not and can not go to software development.
- KomoD 3y ago
  > This is not something that applies just to Matrix FYI The Matrix foundation is not a 501(c)(3), it's not even registered in the US.
  - EarlKing 3y ago
    A quick search turned up a registration for them in the UK? Is this them?[1] And if so..... where is any of this even documented on the matrix.org website? Lastly, use of a CIC is a horrible idea for precisely the sort of shady shit we're seeing here. [1] https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/11648710 https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/c...
    - KomoD 3y ago
      That is them, yes. On the "About" page under "Legal Details".
justin66 3y ago
Who are you? What is the Matrix.org foundation to you?
- alohapersona3 3y ago
  Why would it be relevant, who I am? I am interested in the future of Matrix as an open, decentralized protocol. I increasingly see a risk in the behavior of New Vector as the VC-funded effective owner of the Matrix protocol. To me, the Matrix.org Foundation was supposed to be the organization that saves the community from the interests of VCs. Over recent years I got the feeling the foundation became mostly a fake nonprofit organization to attract donations from the community while the for-profit company attracts VC money. The foundation did not manage to properly include the community in any of its official positions (Board, Spec Team) in 5 years, clearly showing that this is not in its interest. For Matrix to be a success, we need to design it such that there can be contributions from others than New Vector. This is not happening and because of that, it's very likely that as soon as New Vector is running out of money, Matrix is going to collapse. Having at least a bunch of money in the foundation would reduce that risk, but New Vector seems to even be siphoning off that.
  - eredengrin 3y ago
    > For Matrix to be a success, we need to design it such that there can be contributions from others than New Vector. What exactly do you think is stopping such contributions? It seems to me there is plenty of room for community involvement, it is simply a matter of the community doing it (which many have been of course, but there is also always more work to do and free skilled labor is not easy to come by in large quantities). > Having at least a bunch of money in the foundation would reduce that risk, but New Vector seems to even be siphoning off that. I'm not following. How does the foundation having money reduce this risk? In particular, how do you think the foundation would help prevent the "collapse" of matrix if they had more funding? If you ask me I'd think that funding developers would be a good way to do that, and as the primary force behind the reference implementations, wouldn't funding Element/New Vector be a good way to do that? Although I was under the impression that resources primarily flowed the opposite way, from Element to the Foundation, but I haven't kept close track so could be wrong... In any case, I'd echo the original sentiment of this thread - as someone who joined their patreon back when it first started and still haven't left it, I don't really mind if they haven't documented for the public where exactly every penny went as long as it's going towards the people developing matrix. Yeah maybe not ideal, but given that the foundation has very little money to begin with I have a tough time faulting it. It would change things if they were bringing in millions, but when the community patreon is not even bringing in enough to hire a full time minimum wage employee in California, much less a developer, accountant, or lawyer, documenting the expenditure of a few pennies is pretty low on my priority list.

EarlKing 3y ago

Without looking at how this organization works, let me clarify: a 501(c)(3) cannot be paying for software development insofar as this constitutes Product Development. Product Development is outside the scope of charitable work and, if caught, would open them up to back taxes on those 'charitable' contributions plus fines. This is not something that applies just to Matrix, but to the Free Software Foundation for that matter. Not one fucking dime you give them ever goes to software development, and the fact that they don't make this clear upfront given the obvious misunderstanding on the part of the public and what they think they're funding, is fraudulent. TL;DR Donations to 501(c)(3)'s managing open source projects might as well be lit on fire because they do not and can not go to software development.

KomoD 3y ago
> This is not something that applies just to Matrix FYI The Matrix foundation is not a 501(c)(3), it's not even registered in the US.
- EarlKing 3y ago
  A quick search turned up a registration for them in the UK? Is this them?[1] And if so..... where is any of this even documented on the matrix.org website? Lastly, use of a CIC is a horrible idea for precisely the sort of shady shit we're seeing here. [1] https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/11648710 https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/c...
  - KomoD 3y ago
    That is them, yes. On the "About" page under "Legal Details".

justin66 3y ago

Who are you? What is the Matrix.org foundation to you?

alohapersona3 3y ago
Why would it be relevant, who I am? I am interested in the future of Matrix as an open, decentralized protocol. I increasingly see a risk in the behavior of New Vector as the VC-funded effective owner of the Matrix protocol. To me, the Matrix.org Foundation was supposed to be the organization that saves the community from the interests of VCs. Over recent years I got the feeling the foundation became mostly a fake nonprofit organization to attract donations from the community while the for-profit company attracts VC money. The foundation did not manage to properly include the community in any of its official positions (Board, Spec Team) in 5 years, clearly showing that this is not in its interest. For Matrix to be a success, we need to design it such that there can be contributions from others than New Vector. This is not happening and because of that, it's very likely that as soon as New Vector is running out of money, Matrix is going to collapse. Having at least a bunch of money in the foundation would reduce that risk, but New Vector seems to even be siphoning off that.
- eredengrin 3y ago
  > For Matrix to be a success, we need to design it such that there can be contributions from others than New Vector. What exactly do you think is stopping such contributions? It seems to me there is plenty of room for community involvement, it is simply a matter of the community doing it (which many have been of course, but there is also always more work to do and free skilled labor is not easy to come by in large quantities). > Having at least a bunch of money in the foundation would reduce that risk, but New Vector seems to even be siphoning off that. I'm not following. How does the foundation having money reduce this risk? In particular, how do you think the foundation would help prevent the "collapse" of matrix if they had more funding? If you ask me I'd think that funding developers would be a good way to do that, and as the primary force behind the reference implementations, wouldn't funding Element/New Vector be a good way to do that? Although I was under the impression that resources primarily flowed the opposite way, from Element to the Foundation, but I haven't kept close track so could be wrong... In any case, I'd echo the original sentiment of this thread - as someone who joined their patreon back when it first started and still haven't left it, I don't really mind if they haven't documented for the public where exactly every penny went as long as it's going towards the people developing matrix. Yeah maybe not ideal, but given that the foundation has very little money to begin with I have a tough time faulting it. It would change things if they were bringing in millions, but when the community patreon is not even bringing in enough to hire a full time minimum wage employee in California, much less a developer, accountant, or lawyer, documenting the expenditure of a few pennies is pretty low on my priority list.