7 ms·

I suspect anyone who wants to address the elephant in the room here will have to choose between accepting support from semi-fascist types or getting cancelled

pempem 3y ago
I suspect you haven't even begun to think your comment out. The idea that someone who does not presumably know the language, culture, or even where all the landmarks of a city/nation are suddenly start running organized crime is deeply mistaken and does not even track with the most well-known syndicates such as the mafia (1920s in NY compared to 1880s enmasse arrival of Italians) or cartels ("homegrown"). Look deeper and you would see these syndicates grew because there were purposefully and one might argued, promoted by semi-facist types or those who would get "cancelled" today, preventing reasonable opportunities from being provided to these populations. Even moreso, you might see that much of our economy depends on deeply underpaid labor continuously running agriculture and service sectors and now I would argue even tech, with the danger of being deported or not getting a visa hanging over their actions.
- pempem 3y ago
  Some other notes: This graph, in the financial times article about immigration, indicates 5. 5 deaths per million. The growth is horrible and yet the reality is nothing like the one being lived in by the US. Most hackernews posters often post about gun violence in the US as being something necessary to address and also simultaneously something that does not impact their day to day decisions around errands like the grocery or activities like music festivals or conferences. Just to put things in perspective, deaths by firearm are around 60 per million in the US, twelve times the Swedish figure. Further, as every greying country attempts to use immigration to grow a declining population, some flavor of this comment will negatively impact their efforts: “Swedes make you feel foreign even when you have the passport, even my kids who were born here,” he says. “They blame immigrants for everything. But this gang violence affects me, my family, my friends as well."
  - noxer 3y ago
    I dont know where you got the statics from but these do not seem to be comparable values. It most like includes accidents and suicides which have entirely different factors than gun violence and for obvious reason are more likely to be committed with a gun if its easier to get a gun legal. Overall there is however no correlation with more suicide with better firearm access. Suicide attempts/surviving rates can be slightly lower (for obvious reasons). Either way none of these should matter since suicide isn't gun violence.
- whearyou 3y ago
  Nice zinger. That was a lot of words. One question - are there any patterns with who is involved in this gang violence?
throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
Lol, somebody has a hot take but isn't brave enough to announce it
screye 3y ago
Not sure why it is so controversial. * A region with instability, poverty and agrarian-tribo-rural-economy will imprint emergent traits onto the local culture. * Long ossified culture cannot be shed quickly even in the best of conditions * Agrarian tribal cultural practices are incompatible with hyper-liberal secular society. Integration is the only option. * Integration is hard. Even more so when it is optional, gentle and approached with ignorant naivete. Of course things went wrong. The Swedish drank American kool-aid. Like America, they naively tried to claim that their national identity is not an ethnic identity. They set out to prove themselves better than the US by taking in large populations of refugees and showing how they could do the America model better. That's where they got it completely wrong. The US took centuries to decouple its cultural identity from its prevailing-ethnic identity. (by successfully secularizing Protestantism.) The US also heavily vets its immigrants (unlike Sweden) and places the most oppressive integration-force-field second only to France. The air you breathe (Media), the carrot (The American dream) and the stick (the English language) all perfectly align to facilitate integration of the 2nd generation born into the US. Swedish is an ethno-cultural identity. If you can't start with accepting that, then ofc the grand immigration plan was going to fail.
- searealist 3y ago
  > The US also heavily vets its immigrants (unlike Sweden) and places the most oppressive integration-force-field second only to France. The air you breathe (Media), the carrot (The American dream) and the stick (the English language) all perfectly align to facilitate integration of the 2nd generation born into the US. Most of America's immigration comes from the southern border and is completely unvetted. Your thoughts on integration also don't align with reality. Edit: participating in this thread has resulted in the moderators of this site applying a rate limit to my account, so I can no longer reply.
  - screye 3y ago
    The rise of massive Hispanic immigration to the US is fairly recent [1] About 25% of USA's immigration is as a result of unvetted immigrants from the south [2]. It is still a minority. The majority come here through family (pre-integrated) or for work (high bar for productivity). Also, Mexico is not the same as war torn middle-east. Mexicans are already culturally aligned (Christianity), ethnically aligned (massive white admixture) and economically far closer to the developed world as compared to the recent warn-torn middle eastern nations. There have been large & well-established Spanish-Christian communities within the US for centuries, which makes it much harder for them to ghettoize. My point about the integration force-field still stands. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/20/facts-on-u-s-immigrants/#:~:text=groups%20were%20much%20more%20evenly%20dispersed https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/20/facts-on-u-s... [2] https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/20/facts-on-u-s-immigrants/#:~:text=unauthorized%20immigrants%20from%20Mexico%20fell%20from%20a%20peak%20of%206.9%20million%20in%202007%20to%204.9%20million%20in%202017 https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/20/facts-on-u-s...
turbohz 3y ago
About binary thinking....
lnsru 3y ago
The same elephant is in the room in Germany. The society starts discovering patriotism which was unthinkable few years ago. The problem gets slowly too noticeable to be hidden by mainstream politicians.
woodruffw 3y ago
And what, exactly, is the "elephant in the room"? If this is meant to be a dogwhistle about immigration, it seems appropriate to observe that many of the countries TFA compares Sweden to (Greece, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands) have similar immigration patterns without the same violent crime rates.
- NicoJuicy 3y ago
  > Sweden to (Greece, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands) have similar immigration patterns without the same violent crime rates. You haven't gone to Brussels I suppose... Especially Molenbeek or Station Zuid. Ps. I'm from Belgium
  - woodruffw 3y ago
    > You haven't gone to Brussels I suppose... Especially Molenbeek or Station Zuid. I go to Brussels at least once a year. Again with the obliqueness: is there something specific you want to say? Is the implication that your national police force is suppressing the "real" murder rate?
    - NicoJuicy 3y ago
      Criminality isn't just murder rates https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/07/27/station-brussel-zuid-kampt-met-toenemende-criminaliteit/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/07/27/station-brussel-zuid...
  - fullspectrumdev 3y ago
    I stay in that area with friends whenever I visit. It’s completely fine.
    - NicoJuicy 3y ago
      Male and walking in the day+ not alone? - A friend of mine had an escort picking her up at the station from her work. - My mom + a friend of her felt threatened by a non-native, when taking the train back from the airport. These are retired women and my mom's friend travels 3 x a year everywhere. She felt the most unsafe here in Brussels and not taking the train again. ( This was after Operation "cleanup") - Operation cleanup in Brussels South - ( https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2023/08/29/brussels-south-two-days-after-the-major-police-operation-first/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2023/08/29/brussels-south-two-d... ) which resulted in 56 arrests and some people on a wanted list ( https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2023/08/28/56-arrested-in-police-operation-around-brussels-south-station/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2023/08/28/56-arrested-in-polic... ). Note: this was a criminal cleanup that was mentioned on the media upfront - 5 younger kids from Brussels raped an ex in Malta ( news update from 16/11/2023) https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/11/16/belgische-jongeren-vrij-op-borg-in-malta-verkrachting/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/11/16/belgische-jongeren-v... - News from 2 days ago ( 18/11/2023) The most popular bars ( Delirium, you've probably went ) where 2 female tourists got drugged and raped https://www.hln.be/brussel/elke-keer-ik-wakker-werd-was-mijn-shirt-opgetrokken-of-mijn-broek-opengeritst-margot-22-werd-gedrogeerd-tijdens-avondje-uit-in-brussel~ad5a4909/ https://www.hln.be/brussel/elke-keer-ik-wakker-werd-was-mijn... Plenty of other examples. Including from people living there or lived there. https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2022/03/01/molenbeek-police-station-attacked-with-molotov-cocktails/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2022/03/01/molenbeek-police-sta... Or... it's a coincidence that Abdeslam was from Molenbeek? :) Sure
patall 3y ago
I suspect that many people still havn't realized that the elephant in the room is not solved by stricter laws. Because those are in place everywhere. The elephant is what is supposed to happen to those people. Because nobody wants them. And when you cannot deport, what are you going to do?
- w1n5t0n99 3y ago
  [dead]
- nradov 3y ago
  The usual solution has been to pay some third country to take them.
  - patall 3y ago
    Yes, like the UK-Ruanda plan. Problem is that this very unethical (regarding the native population of the third country, especially if not very democratic). And has the risk that those countries make a business out of it
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      >And has the risk that those countries make a business out of it As opposed to the current state of things where migration is already a big business both legal and otherwise? Check how much money smugglers make. And the likes of Turkey and North Africa squeezing the EU for money to "prevent migrants crossing the Mediterranean". How's that working out?
      - patall 3y ago
        And two times big business is better than once? Of course the current agreements have the same flaw.

pempem 3y ago

I suspect you haven't even begun to think your comment out. The idea that someone who does not presumably know the language, culture, or even where all the landmarks of a city/nation are suddenly start running organized crime is deeply mistaken and does not even track with the most well-known syndicates such as the mafia (1920s in NY compared to 1880s enmasse arrival of Italians) or cartels ("homegrown"). Look deeper and you would see these syndicates grew because there were purposefully and one might argued, promoted by semi-facist types or those who would get "cancelled" today, preventing reasonable opportunities from being provided to these populations. Even moreso, you might see that much of our economy depends on deeply underpaid labor continuously running agriculture and service sectors and now I would argue even tech, with the danger of being deported or not getting a visa hanging over their actions.

pempem 3y ago
Some other notes: This graph, in the financial times article about immigration, indicates 5. 5 deaths per million. The growth is horrible and yet the reality is nothing like the one being lived in by the US. Most hackernews posters often post about gun violence in the US as being something necessary to address and also simultaneously something that does not impact their day to day decisions around errands like the grocery or activities like music festivals or conferences. Just to put things in perspective, deaths by firearm are around 60 per million in the US, twelve times the Swedish figure. Further, as every greying country attempts to use immigration to grow a declining population, some flavor of this comment will negatively impact their efforts: “Swedes make you feel foreign even when you have the passport, even my kids who were born here,” he says. “They blame immigrants for everything. But this gang violence affects me, my family, my friends as well."
- noxer 3y ago
  I dont know where you got the statics from but these do not seem to be comparable values. It most like includes accidents and suicides which have entirely different factors than gun violence and for obvious reason are more likely to be committed with a gun if its easier to get a gun legal. Overall there is however no correlation with more suicide with better firearm access. Suicide attempts/surviving rates can be slightly lower (for obvious reasons). Either way none of these should matter since suicide isn't gun violence.
whearyou 3y ago
Nice zinger. That was a lot of words. One question - are there any patterns with who is involved in this gang violence?

throwawaaarrgh 3y ago

Lol, somebody has a hot take but isn't brave enough to announce it

screye 3y ago

Not sure why it is so controversial. * A region with instability, poverty and agrarian-tribo-rural-economy will imprint emergent traits onto the local culture. * Long ossified culture cannot be shed quickly even in the best of conditions * Agrarian tribal cultural practices are incompatible with hyper-liberal secular society. Integration is the only option. * Integration is hard. Even more so when it is optional, gentle and approached with ignorant naivete. Of course things went wrong. The Swedish drank American kool-aid. Like America, they naively tried to claim that their national identity is not an ethnic identity. They set out to prove themselves better than the US by taking in large populations of refugees and showing how they could do the America model better. That's where they got it completely wrong. The US took centuries to decouple its cultural identity from its prevailing-ethnic identity. (by successfully secularizing Protestantism.) The US also heavily vets its immigrants (unlike Sweden) and places the most oppressive integration-force-field second only to France. The air you breathe (Media), the carrot (The American dream) and the stick (the English language) all perfectly align to facilitate integration of the 2nd generation born into the US. Swedish is an ethno-cultural identity. If you can't start with accepting that, then ofc the grand immigration plan was going to fail.

searealist 3y ago
> The US also heavily vets its immigrants (unlike Sweden) and places the most oppressive integration-force-field second only to France. The air you breathe (Media), the carrot (The American dream) and the stick (the English language) all perfectly align to facilitate integration of the 2nd generation born into the US. Most of America's immigration comes from the southern border and is completely unvetted. Your thoughts on integration also don't align with reality. Edit: participating in this thread has resulted in the moderators of this site applying a rate limit to my account, so I can no longer reply.
- screye 3y ago
  The rise of massive Hispanic immigration to the US is fairly recent [1] About 25% of USA's immigration is as a result of unvetted immigrants from the south [2]. It is still a minority. The majority come here through family (pre-integrated) or for work (high bar for productivity). Also, Mexico is not the same as war torn middle-east. Mexicans are already culturally aligned (Christianity), ethnically aligned (massive white admixture) and economically far closer to the developed world as compared to the recent warn-torn middle eastern nations. There have been large & well-established Spanish-Christian communities within the US for centuries, which makes it much harder for them to ghettoize. My point about the integration force-field still stands. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/20/facts-on-u-s-immigrants/#:~:text=groups%20were%20much%20more%20evenly%20dispersed https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/20/facts-on-u-s... [2] https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/20/facts-on-u-s-immigrants/#:~:text=unauthorized%20immigrants%20from%20Mexico%20fell%20from%20a%20peak%20of%206.9%20million%20in%202007%20to%204.9%20million%20in%202017 https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/20/facts-on-u-s...

turbohz 3y ago

About binary thinking....

lnsru 3y ago

The same elephant is in the room in Germany. The society starts discovering patriotism which was unthinkable few years ago. The problem gets slowly too noticeable to be hidden by mainstream politicians.

woodruffw 3y ago

And what, exactly, is the "elephant in the room"? If this is meant to be a dogwhistle about immigration, it seems appropriate to observe that many of the countries TFA compares Sweden to (Greece, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands) have similar immigration patterns without the same violent crime rates.

NicoJuicy 3y ago
> Sweden to (Greece, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands) have similar immigration patterns without the same violent crime rates. You haven't gone to Brussels I suppose... Especially Molenbeek or Station Zuid. Ps. I'm from Belgium
- woodruffw 3y ago
  > You haven't gone to Brussels I suppose... Especially Molenbeek or Station Zuid. I go to Brussels at least once a year. Again with the obliqueness: is there something specific you want to say? Is the implication that your national police force is suppressing the "real" murder rate?
  - NicoJuicy 3y ago
    Criminality isn't just murder rates https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/07/27/station-brussel-zuid-kampt-met-toenemende-criminaliteit/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/07/27/station-brussel-zuid...
- fullspectrumdev 3y ago
  I stay in that area with friends whenever I visit. It’s completely fine.
  - NicoJuicy 3y ago
    Male and walking in the day+ not alone? - A friend of mine had an escort picking her up at the station from her work. - My mom + a friend of her felt threatened by a non-native, when taking the train back from the airport. These are retired women and my mom's friend travels 3 x a year everywhere. She felt the most unsafe here in Brussels and not taking the train again. ( This was after Operation "cleanup") - Operation cleanup in Brussels South - ( https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2023/08/29/brussels-south-two-days-after-the-major-police-operation-first/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2023/08/29/brussels-south-two-d... ) which resulted in 56 arrests and some people on a wanted list ( https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2023/08/28/56-arrested-in-police-operation-around-brussels-south-station/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2023/08/28/56-arrested-in-polic... ). Note: this was a criminal cleanup that was mentioned on the media upfront - 5 younger kids from Brussels raped an ex in Malta ( news update from 16/11/2023) https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/11/16/belgische-jongeren-vrij-op-borg-in-malta-verkrachting/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/11/16/belgische-jongeren-v... - News from 2 days ago ( 18/11/2023) The most popular bars ( Delirium, you've probably went ) where 2 female tourists got drugged and raped https://www.hln.be/brussel/elke-keer-ik-wakker-werd-was-mijn-shirt-opgetrokken-of-mijn-broek-opengeritst-margot-22-werd-gedrogeerd-tijdens-avondje-uit-in-brussel~ad5a4909/ https://www.hln.be/brussel/elke-keer-ik-wakker-werd-was-mijn... Plenty of other examples. Including from people living there or lived there. https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2022/03/01/molenbeek-police-station-attacked-with-molotov-cocktails/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2022/03/01/molenbeek-police-sta... Or... it's a coincidence that Abdeslam was from Molenbeek? :) Sure

patall 3y ago

I suspect that many people still havn't realized that the elephant in the room is not solved by stricter laws. Because those are in place everywhere. The elephant is what is supposed to happen to those people. Because nobody wants them. And when you cannot deport, what are you going to do?

w1n5t0n99 3y ago
[dead]
nradov 3y ago
The usual solution has been to pay some third country to take them.
- patall 3y ago
  Yes, like the UK-Ruanda plan. Problem is that this very unethical (regarding the native population of the third country, especially if not very democratic). And has the risk that those countries make a business out of it
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >And has the risk that those countries make a business out of it As opposed to the current state of things where migration is already a big business both legal and otherwise? Check how much money smugglers make. And the likes of Turkey and North Africa squeezing the EU for money to "prevent migrants crossing the Mediterranean". How's that working out?
    - patall 3y ago
      And two times big business is better than once? Of course the current agreements have the same flaw.