7 ms·

> “If a consumer is led to believe something costs $10, and it costs $20, they’ve been misled.” This is nice. But the US will also need sales taxes included in

by jopsen 3y ago

> “If a consumer is led to believe something costs $10, and it costs $20, they’ve been misled.” This is nice. But the US will also need sales taxes included in the advertised price. The EU have generally driven a lot of transparency around fees. Usually under the banner of fostering competition.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> the US will also need sales taxes included in the advertised price This is totally separate from junk fees, which are controlled by the seller. Sales tax exclusive is a common complaint from visiting Europeans. It is seldom an issue for Americans because most aren’t paying with exact change or calculating budgets to the penny. Go to low-income neighbourhoods, where incomes are closer to those in Europe, and you’ll find tax-inclusive pricing.
- jcbrand 3y ago
  > Go to low-income neighbourhoods, where incomes are closer to those in Europe, and you’ll find tax-inclusive pricing This is a pretty funny but largely ignorant dig at Europeans. Every country I've ever been to except the US includes VAT in their prices and I've been to over 30. It's not just a European thing but a world thing, where the US once again is the odd one out.
  - biztos 3y ago
    A country with an interesting VAT/sales tax is Thailand, where large shops and chains and places in malls will add tax to the final price (and service charge sometimes) while smaller places will not. (I’m talking restaurants, VAT is included in online stores and I’m pretty sure for physical goods.) I think this is because of the minimum turnover for VAT[0] at least on paper, but there are places obviously making a lot more that just don’t bother with it, so there is probably a lot of adventurous accounting as well. Lovely place, you should add it to your 30+. [0]: https://www.aseanbriefing.com/news/a-guide-to-taxation-in-thailand/ https://www.aseanbriefing.com/news/a-guide-to-taxation-in-th...
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > It's not just a European thing but a world thing, where the US once again is the odd one out I agree. That doesn’t make it an issue. It also doesn’t negate that the U.S. is the odd one out on (a) income and (b) local government. Those are the factors, together with less cash use (though this bucket is less exclusive), behind the phenomenon. My life would literally not change in any tangible way for having keeping menus and price stickers up to date; if another store gave me better service for forgoing that work, I’d probably notice that first. Put another way: I’ve travelled a lot in the world, and I genuinely hadn’t noticed tax-inclusive pricing until a German friend pointed it out in Frankfurt.
    - theoldlove 3y ago
      > I genuinely hadn’t noticed tax-inclusive pricing until a German friend pointed it out in Frankfurt. Well, you’re not used to being able to rely on prices being accurate. Surely if you’re used to accurate prices you might be paying more attention if suddenly they’re no longer correct.
    - jopsen 3y ago
      Across Europe you'll find many small countries with similar incomes, less cash use and more transparent pricing. Transparent pricing is a fundamental necessity for the free market. More importantly not having puts an additional burden on those with smaller incomes (they most certainly also exist in the US).
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > you'll find many small countries with similar incomes, less cash use and more transparent pricing How many tax regimes do they contain within themselves on account of local governments? I’m not saying America can’t do it. I’m saying we don’t care to. This is literally a non-issue for most Americans. I understand the aesthetic preference. But it’s such a strange hill to die on. > Transparent pricing is a fundamental necessity for the free market Transparent pricing doesn’t mean pricing with no math. Junk fees, on the other hand, are not transparent and not set by the state. (Though I haven’t yet seen the business lobby try to distract by shifting the debate to tax-inclusive pricing, which would be admittedly clever.)
  - SeanLuke 3y ago
    > Every country I've ever been to except the US includes VAT in their prices and I've been to over 30. It's not just a European thing but a world thing, where the US once again is the odd one out. Only for local purchases, at least in Europe. In fact for non-local purchases, the US is much simpler. I am, right now, in Italy, ordering an item from Germany, and it priced at N euros "plus 19% VAT". Because receiving countries differ in amount of VAT, vendors outside those countries cannot include it in their prices. But it's "0% VAT" shipping to US -- that is, the primary country where you pay the vendor exactly what's stated is the US.
    - Gare 3y ago
      Most large EU-wide online stores just ask you where you're from and calculate VAT accordingly.
    - rescbr 3y ago
      Until the recent explosion on direct online shopping from China, you, the importer, were responsible for collecting import duties/VAT. To avoid tax evasion the customs authorities started requiring import duties to be paid in advance. The US is one of the counties where the value that is duty free is high, and as I understand it, there’s no tax collection in advance. Most/all purchases will be 0% tax from the vendor side, but you are still responsible for assessing and collecting this tax yourself.
    - cycomanic 3y ago
      Well the shop you're ordering from is crap. Many of the shops I order from calculate vat based on where you ship to. So what you see is what you pay. I think even if the advertise the wrong VAT you still pay what is on the sticker. How is that not better than having to always add some value yourself whose percentage differs based on where you are atm?
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > Many of the shops I order from calculate vat based on where you ship to This is a good illustration of valid trade offs between two cultures. I find it absurd to have to enter my address before even being shown pricing (let alone deciding to purchase). You, on the other hand, prefer all-in pricing. These are both reasonable takes! They’re just different.
- jopsen 3y ago
  > Sales tax exclusive is a common complaint from visiting Europeans. It is seldom an issue for Americans because most aren’t paying with exact change or calculating budgets to the penny. I know it's true -- when I loved in SF the fact that I couldn't tell what things cost just made me give up looking at the price altogether :) I just picked things in safeway and payed without even listening to what the amount charged was... But it's probably a bad idea to encourage this kind of behavior. If you want the free market to work, you'll need engaged customers who at-least reads the price tag.
  - terminous 3y ago
    > know it's true -- when I loved in SF the fact that I couldn't tell what things cost just made me give up looking at the price altogether :) I just picked things in safeway and payed without even listening to what the amount charged was... I'm sorry that it's so hard for you to multiply by 1.1
    - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
      09:00 - you're in Santa Fe, NM. What's the sales tax rate? OK, good, you've figured it out. 12:00 - after a delightful morning checking out the history of genocide in North America, you decide to drive the Turquoise Trail (NM14), a national scenic byway, south to Albuquerque. You stop to wander and eat lunch in Madrid, NM. What's the sales tax rate? Wrong, you're no longer in the city of Santa Fe, but Santa Fe county. 17:00 - you arrive in Albuquerque and go to buy something at a regular store. What's the sales tax rate? Ah, now you're getting it: you don't know, because now you're in Bernalillo County, NM.
      - dghlsakjg 3y ago
        The entire range of places you listed differ by slightly more than one percent in tax rate. If you’re that price sensitive, you can probably save a lot more money by just visiting five to ten stores to comparison shop for every item since you can likely save far more than one percent that way. Or just fork over the extra penny per dollar when you visit Santa Fe the city
- gnicholas 3y ago
  Yeah it’s super annoying when companies have a “taxes and fees” section that contains mandatory taxes alongside fees that they decide to impose. Uber and DoorDash come to mind.
lotsofpulp 3y ago
Some of the jurisdictions I have businesses in require all taxes to be shown on the receipt, and individually. We have to show 4 different taxes for each night of a hotel stay, that is 5 lines of charged breaking down the cost of a hotel room might. A week long stay is a multiple page receipt. My ATT receipt for my mobile phone shows 8 different state and city and county taxes, from general sales tax to 911 specific ones to mental healthcare tax. Zero reason for all this to be broken down for the end customer.
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  And then remember that the cell and cable companies had to be threatened with lawsuits to stop labeling some of their fees as taxes. "Charges can only be labeled as a tax if 100% of the charge goes to a government entity."
  - brewdad 3y ago
    I have seen fees labeled as "foo tx" to get around this. Technically, they didn't call it a tax.
- nerdbert 3y ago
  It's fine to break them down on the invoice if they prefer/must. But the listed price should still be the final price inclusive of all mandatory fees. When I buy something here in Europe it will say €2 on the sticker, and then my receipt will say that the price was €1.66 with a VAT of €0.34 for a total of €2.
- brewdad 3y ago
  Broken down or not, I want to know that my $75 phone bill will be $75 and not $87.62. Prepaid phone services manage this just fine, so it isn't difficult.
- pdntspa 3y ago
  As an end customer I want to know when I am being swindled with unnecessary fees. As a business owner you want to hide them. So yeah, there's plenty of reasons. Oh no, a long receipt. Won't somebody think of the ... ignorant people?
Ekaros 3y ago
Just advertise the price with highest possible sales tax and then everyone else will get discount. Simple enough.

by jopsen 3y ago

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> the US will also need sales taxes included in the advertised price This is totally separate from junk fees, which are controlled by the seller. Sales tax exclusive is a common complaint from visiting Europeans. It is seldom an issue for Americans because most aren’t paying with exact change or calculating budgets to the penny. Go to low-income neighbourhoods, where incomes are closer to those in Europe, and you’ll find tax-inclusive pricing.

jcbrand 3y ago
> Go to low-income neighbourhoods, where incomes are closer to those in Europe, and you’ll find tax-inclusive pricing This is a pretty funny but largely ignorant dig at Europeans. Every country I've ever been to except the US includes VAT in their prices and I've been to over 30. It's not just a European thing but a world thing, where the US once again is the odd one out.
- biztos 3y ago
  A country with an interesting VAT/sales tax is Thailand, where large shops and chains and places in malls will add tax to the final price (and service charge sometimes) while smaller places will not. (I’m talking restaurants, VAT is included in online stores and I’m pretty sure for physical goods.) I think this is because of the minimum turnover for VAT[0] at least on paper, but there are places obviously making a lot more that just don’t bother with it, so there is probably a lot of adventurous accounting as well. Lovely place, you should add it to your 30+. [0]: https://www.aseanbriefing.com/news/a-guide-to-taxation-in-thailand/ https://www.aseanbriefing.com/news/a-guide-to-taxation-in-th...
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > It's not just a European thing but a world thing, where the US once again is the odd one out I agree. That doesn’t make it an issue. It also doesn’t negate that the U.S. is the odd one out on (a) income and (b) local government. Those are the factors, together with less cash use (though this bucket is less exclusive), behind the phenomenon. My life would literally not change in any tangible way for having keeping menus and price stickers up to date; if another store gave me better service for forgoing that work, I’d probably notice that first. Put another way: I’ve travelled a lot in the world, and I genuinely hadn’t noticed tax-inclusive pricing until a German friend pointed it out in Frankfurt.
  - theoldlove 3y ago
    > I genuinely hadn’t noticed tax-inclusive pricing until a German friend pointed it out in Frankfurt. Well, you’re not used to being able to rely on prices being accurate. Surely if you’re used to accurate prices you might be paying more attention if suddenly they’re no longer correct.
  - jopsen 3y ago
    Across Europe you'll find many small countries with similar incomes, less cash use and more transparent pricing. Transparent pricing is a fundamental necessity for the free market. More importantly not having puts an additional burden on those with smaller incomes (they most certainly also exist in the US).
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > you'll find many small countries with similar incomes, less cash use and more transparent pricing How many tax regimes do they contain within themselves on account of local governments? I’m not saying America can’t do it. I’m saying we don’t care to. This is literally a non-issue for most Americans. I understand the aesthetic preference. But it’s such a strange hill to die on. > Transparent pricing is a fundamental necessity for the free market Transparent pricing doesn’t mean pricing with no math. Junk fees, on the other hand, are not transparent and not set by the state. (Though I haven’t yet seen the business lobby try to distract by shifting the debate to tax-inclusive pricing, which would be admittedly clever.)
- SeanLuke 3y ago
  > Every country I've ever been to except the US includes VAT in their prices and I've been to over 30. It's not just a European thing but a world thing, where the US once again is the odd one out. Only for local purchases, at least in Europe. In fact for non-local purchases, the US is much simpler. I am, right now, in Italy, ordering an item from Germany, and it priced at N euros "plus 19% VAT". Because receiving countries differ in amount of VAT, vendors outside those countries cannot include it in their prices. But it's "0% VAT" shipping to US -- that is, the primary country where you pay the vendor exactly what's stated is the US.
  - Gare 3y ago
    Most large EU-wide online stores just ask you where you're from and calculate VAT accordingly.
  - rescbr 3y ago
    Until the recent explosion on direct online shopping from China, you, the importer, were responsible for collecting import duties/VAT. To avoid tax evasion the customs authorities started requiring import duties to be paid in advance. The US is one of the counties where the value that is duty free is high, and as I understand it, there’s no tax collection in advance. Most/all purchases will be 0% tax from the vendor side, but you are still responsible for assessing and collecting this tax yourself.
  - cycomanic 3y ago
    Well the shop you're ordering from is crap. Many of the shops I order from calculate vat based on where you ship to. So what you see is what you pay. I think even if the advertise the wrong VAT you still pay what is on the sticker. How is that not better than having to always add some value yourself whose percentage differs based on where you are atm?
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > Many of the shops I order from calculate vat based on where you ship to This is a good illustration of valid trade offs between two cultures. I find it absurd to have to enter my address before even being shown pricing (let alone deciding to purchase). You, on the other hand, prefer all-in pricing. These are both reasonable takes! They’re just different.
jopsen 3y ago
> Sales tax exclusive is a common complaint from visiting Europeans. It is seldom an issue for Americans because most aren’t paying with exact change or calculating budgets to the penny. I know it's true -- when I loved in SF the fact that I couldn't tell what things cost just made me give up looking at the price altogether :) I just picked things in safeway and payed without even listening to what the amount charged was... But it's probably a bad idea to encourage this kind of behavior. If you want the free market to work, you'll need engaged customers who at-least reads the price tag.
- terminous 3y ago
  > know it's true -- when I loved in SF the fact that I couldn't tell what things cost just made me give up looking at the price altogether :) I just picked things in safeway and payed without even listening to what the amount charged was... I'm sorry that it's so hard for you to multiply by 1.1
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    09:00 - you're in Santa Fe, NM. What's the sales tax rate? OK, good, you've figured it out. 12:00 - after a delightful morning checking out the history of genocide in North America, you decide to drive the Turquoise Trail (NM14), a national scenic byway, south to Albuquerque. You stop to wander and eat lunch in Madrid, NM. What's the sales tax rate? Wrong, you're no longer in the city of Santa Fe, but Santa Fe county. 17:00 - you arrive in Albuquerque and go to buy something at a regular store. What's the sales tax rate? Ah, now you're getting it: you don't know, because now you're in Bernalillo County, NM.
    - dghlsakjg 3y ago
      The entire range of places you listed differ by slightly more than one percent in tax rate. If you’re that price sensitive, you can probably save a lot more money by just visiting five to ten stores to comparison shop for every item since you can likely save far more than one percent that way. Or just fork over the extra penny per dollar when you visit Santa Fe the city
gnicholas 3y ago
Yeah it’s super annoying when companies have a “taxes and fees” section that contains mandatory taxes alongside fees that they decide to impose. Uber and DoorDash come to mind.

lotsofpulp 3y ago

Some of the jurisdictions I have businesses in require all taxes to be shown on the receipt, and individually. We have to show 4 different taxes for each night of a hotel stay, that is 5 lines of charged breaking down the cost of a hotel room might. A week long stay is a multiple page receipt. My ATT receipt for my mobile phone shows 8 different state and city and county taxes, from general sales tax to 911 specific ones to mental healthcare tax. Zero reason for all this to be broken down for the end customer.

FireBeyond 3y ago
And then remember that the cell and cable companies had to be threatened with lawsuits to stop labeling some of their fees as taxes. "Charges can only be labeled as a tax if 100% of the charge goes to a government entity."
- brewdad 3y ago
  I have seen fees labeled as "foo tx" to get around this. Technically, they didn't call it a tax.
nerdbert 3y ago
It's fine to break them down on the invoice if they prefer/must. But the listed price should still be the final price inclusive of all mandatory fees. When I buy something here in Europe it will say €2 on the sticker, and then my receipt will say that the price was €1.66 with a VAT of €0.34 for a total of €2.
brewdad 3y ago
Broken down or not, I want to know that my $75 phone bill will be $75 and not $87.62. Prepaid phone services manage this just fine, so it isn't difficult.
pdntspa 3y ago
As an end customer I want to know when I am being swindled with unnecessary fees. As a business owner you want to hide them. So yeah, there's plenty of reasons. Oh no, a long receipt. Won't somebody think of the ... ignorant people?

Ekaros 3y ago

Just advertise the price with highest possible sales tax and then everyone else will get discount. Simple enough.