4 ms·

Maybe I'm missing what "abstraction" means here but seems like the tasks were centered around grids and other spatial problems, which are a very limited subset

by kaoD 3y ago

Maybe I'm missing what "abstraction" means here but seems like the tasks were centered around grids and other spatial problems, which are a very limited subset of abstraction/reasoning. In my experience GPT4/V is pretty bad at those specifically, not necessarily around abstraction in general. Positions, rotations, etc. are a concept that GPT4 finds very hard to apply, which is kinda unsurprising since it has no body, no world, no space; it "lives" in the realm of text. DALLE3 suffers a similar problem where it has trouble with concepts like "upside down" and consistently fails to apply them to generated images.

mr_toad 3y ago
> DALLE3 suffers a similar problem where it has trouble with concepts like "upside down" and consistently fails to apply them to generated images. There’s probably not many (if any) upside down images or objects in the training data.
pixl97 3y ago
What would directions be for an intelligent creature that lives in zero gravity? I just like thinking about this for the same reasons humans like writing speculative science fiction. Trying to guess what alien perspectives look like, might also give us insights when we're the ones making the alien.
- Retric 3y ago
  Basically the same, gravity doesn’t define left/right or North, South, East, and West for us just up and down.
  - trealira 3y ago
    However, North, South, East, and West are relative to the poles of the Earth. Something living in zero gravity would have to use some object as an anchor to determine the direction.
    - Retric 3y ago
      You’re also oriented based on objects. We don’t have an abstract compass pointing north 24/7 the way we can use our bodies to determine left and right or gravity to point down.
      - trealira 3y ago
        Right, that's why we use compasses, which use the poles of the Earth to determine the direction. Something living in zero gravity doesn't have a planet, so they'd have to find something else to base the directions on. That's what I was trying to say before.
        withinboredom 3y ago
        No, but they would have front and back, and people from the bridge would share which way was “up” and “down” and “left” and “right” based on the controls.
        anonymouskimmer 3y ago
        The solar system has a north pole and a south pole based on the rotation of the Sun. Basically the only places in which there isn't something to orient against are in the depths of inter-galactic-cluster voids with nothing around. And if a being is stuck in one of those voids, orientation is way down the list of problems they have.
        trealira 3y ago
        That's a good point. The sun of a solar system could possibly be what an alien society living in zero gravity bases their directions on.
        int_19h 3y ago
        FWIW there is some interesting variability among human cultures on that, as well. There are a few that actually use cardinal directions predominantly or exclusively instead of body-relative ones like "left" and "right".
bloaf 3y ago
It's also worth remembering that blind humans who can recognize squares by feel do not have the ability to recognize squares by sight upon gaining vision. I suspect the model is bad at these kinds of "reasoning" tasks in the same way that a newly-sighted person is bad at recognizing squares by sight.
- eulgro 3y ago
  When did blind humans gain vision out of curiosity?
  - withinboredom 3y ago
    The first one I heard about was 10-15 years ago by projecting an image on the tongue. Ahh, here it is: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/device-lets-blind-see-with-tongues/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/device-lets-blind...
  - bloaf 3y ago
    https://www.projectprakash.org/_files/ugd/2af8ef_5a0c6250cc3a445db0d15c09615b6dba.pdf https://www.projectprakash.org/_files/ugd/2af8ef_5a0c6250cc3... They studied people with treatable congenital blindness (dense congenital bilateral cataracts)
joe_the_user 3y ago
In my experience GPT4/V is pretty bad at those specifically, not necessarily around abstraction in general. The problem with a statement like is that it leaves the door open to accepting any kind of canned generality as "abstraction in general". Abstract reasoning is indeed a fuzzy/slippery concept and spatial reason may not capture it well but I'm pretty sure it captures it better a general impression of ChatGPT. ...since it has no body, no world, no space; it "lives" in the realm of text. There's a bizarre anthropomorphism on this thread, both reflexively compare this software system to a blind human and the implicit call to be considerate of this thing's supposed disability.
- famouswaffles 3y ago
  >The problem with a statement like is that it leaves the door open to accepting any kind of canned generality as "abstraction in general". Not really https://arxiv.org/abs/2212.09196 https://arxiv.org/abs/2212.09196
  - joe_the_user 3y ago
    Nah, By the very fact that there's paper here, whatever it's merit, the authors of the paper have codified their concept of generality and this doesn't validate the point I was replying to, which was essentially "my impression/feeling" is that it is better".
    - famouswaffles 3y ago
      Point is that it's good at abstract reasoning that isn't spatially grounded like in that paper. So it's not really leaving any door open. It's not a cop out. That's just how it is.
- int_19h 3y ago
  Why is it bizarre to consider the limitations inherent in the input data on which the model is trained? Fundamentally, it still "sees" the world through text, and the extent to which it can "understand" spatial relationships is defined by that. It seems utterly unsurprising that this leads to very poor grasp of the actual concepts behind what things like "above" or "left" are - the text that humans produce when talking about such things kinda relies on the reader having their own experience (if not vision, then at least body awareness) that can be mapped to those concepts. You can explain "left" and "right" to a human by telling them which of their hands is which, and I can't help but wonder what the actual information payload this constitutes when you consider the body spatial awareness that is brought into context by association.
lazy_moderator1 3y ago
> which is kinda unsurprising since it has no body, no world, no space; it "lives" in the realm of text or rather the training set was lacking in this regard
Sharlin 3y ago
> DALLE3 suffers a similar problem where it has trouble with concepts like "upside down" and consistently fails to apply them to generated images. This has nothing to do with having "no body, no world" and everything to do with the fact that training pictures where things are upside down are simply vastly rarer that pictures where they aren't.
- kaoD 3y ago
  My point is: both are two sides of the same coin.

by kaoD 3y ago

mr_toad 3y ago

> DALLE3 suffers a similar problem where it has trouble with concepts like "upside down" and consistently fails to apply them to generated images. There’s probably not many (if any) upside down images or objects in the training data.

pixl97 3y ago

What would directions be for an intelligent creature that lives in zero gravity? I just like thinking about this for the same reasons humans like writing speculative science fiction. Trying to guess what alien perspectives look like, might also give us insights when we're the ones making the alien.

Retric 3y ago
Basically the same, gravity doesn’t define left/right or North, South, East, and West for us just up and down.
- trealira 3y ago
  However, North, South, East, and West are relative to the poles of the Earth. Something living in zero gravity would have to use some object as an anchor to determine the direction.
  - Retric 3y ago
    You’re also oriented based on objects. We don’t have an abstract compass pointing north 24/7 the way we can use our bodies to determine left and right or gravity to point down.
    - trealira 3y ago
      Right, that's why we use compasses, which use the poles of the Earth to determine the direction. Something living in zero gravity doesn't have a planet, so they'd have to find something else to base the directions on. That's what I was trying to say before.
      - withinboredom 3y ago
        No, but they would have front and back, and people from the bridge would share which way was “up” and “down” and “left” and “right” based on the controls.
      - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
        The solar system has a north pole and a south pole based on the rotation of the Sun. Basically the only places in which there isn't something to orient against are in the depths of inter-galactic-cluster voids with nothing around. And if a being is stuck in one of those voids, orientation is way down the list of problems they have.
        trealira 3y ago
        That's a good point. The sun of a solar system could possibly be what an alien society living in zero gravity bases their directions on.
      - int_19h 3y ago
        FWIW there is some interesting variability among human cultures on that, as well. There are a few that actually use cardinal directions predominantly or exclusively instead of body-relative ones like "left" and "right".

bloaf 3y ago

It's also worth remembering that blind humans who can recognize squares by feel do not have the ability to recognize squares by sight upon gaining vision. I suspect the model is bad at these kinds of "reasoning" tasks in the same way that a newly-sighted person is bad at recognizing squares by sight.

eulgro 3y ago
When did blind humans gain vision out of curiosity?
- withinboredom 3y ago
  The first one I heard about was 10-15 years ago by projecting an image on the tongue. Ahh, here it is: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/device-lets-blind-see-with-tongues/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/device-lets-blind...
- bloaf 3y ago
  https://www.projectprakash.org/_files/ugd/2af8ef_5a0c6250cc3a445db0d15c09615b6dba.pdf https://www.projectprakash.org/_files/ugd/2af8ef_5a0c6250cc3... They studied people with treatable congenital blindness (dense congenital bilateral cataracts)

joe_the_user 3y ago

In my experience GPT4/V is pretty bad at those specifically, not necessarily around abstraction in general. The problem with a statement like is that it leaves the door open to accepting any kind of canned generality as "abstraction in general". Abstract reasoning is indeed a fuzzy/slippery concept and spatial reason may not capture it well but I'm pretty sure it captures it better a general impression of ChatGPT. ...since it has no body, no world, no space; it "lives" in the realm of text. There's a bizarre anthropomorphism on this thread, both reflexively compare this software system to a blind human and the implicit call to be considerate of this thing's supposed disability.

famouswaffles 3y ago
>The problem with a statement like is that it leaves the door open to accepting any kind of canned generality as "abstraction in general". Not really https://arxiv.org/abs/2212.09196 https://arxiv.org/abs/2212.09196
- joe_the_user 3y ago
  Nah, By the very fact that there's paper here, whatever it's merit, the authors of the paper have codified their concept of generality and this doesn't validate the point I was replying to, which was essentially "my impression/feeling" is that it is better".
  - famouswaffles 3y ago
    Point is that it's good at abstract reasoning that isn't spatially grounded like in that paper. So it's not really leaving any door open. It's not a cop out. That's just how it is.
int_19h 3y ago
Why is it bizarre to consider the limitations inherent in the input data on which the model is trained? Fundamentally, it still "sees" the world through text, and the extent to which it can "understand" spatial relationships is defined by that. It seems utterly unsurprising that this leads to very poor grasp of the actual concepts behind what things like "above" or "left" are - the text that humans produce when talking about such things kinda relies on the reader having their own experience (if not vision, then at least body awareness) that can be mapped to those concepts. You can explain "left" and "right" to a human by telling them which of their hands is which, and I can't help but wonder what the actual information payload this constitutes when you consider the body spatial awareness that is brought into context by association.

lazy_moderator1 3y ago

> which is kinda unsurprising since it has no body, no world, no space; it "lives" in the realm of text or rather the training set was lacking in this regard

Sharlin 3y ago

> DALLE3 suffers a similar problem where it has trouble with concepts like "upside down" and consistently fails to apply them to generated images. This has nothing to do with having "no body, no world" and everything to do with the fact that training pictures where things are upside down are simply vastly rarer that pictures where they aren't.

kaoD 3y ago
My point is: both are two sides of the same coin.