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Does someone know how a painting made by an italian artist in Italy can be declared a French national treasure and blocked from export? I'm not knowledgeable in

by vasco 3y ago

Does someone know how a painting made by an italian artist in Italy can be declared a French national treasure and blocked from export? I'm not knowledgeable in this area.

wahnfrieden 3y ago
The will of state power
Glant 3y ago
The law of finders keepers
- lelandfe 3y ago
  “‘Finders keepers, shut up’ has worked very well for us so far” https://youtube.com/watch?v=x73PkUvArJY https://youtube.com/watch?v=x73PkUvArJY
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- kergonath 3y ago
  It’s Europe. Borders and people moved around constantly, and nationalism was not a thing for most of the continent’s History. Italy as a country would not exist for ~600 years when it was painted. I haven’t seen a complete study of where and how that painting moved since it was done, but there are plenty of possibilities that don’t involve anything dodgy.
FartyMcFarter 3y ago
Well, it's in France. Possession is 9 tenths of the law.
Ichthypresbyter 3y ago
When this story first appeared, it was noted that the woman who owned the painting had lived in Compiègne. Compiègne was the site of a royal residence from 1374 until the Revolution, and the site of a Carmelite convent (which received significant royal support) from 1641 until 1792. The painting could well have belonged to the convent, been sold off locally when it was closed, and either stayed in the family of the original purchaser or made its way through various local antique shops. So there's a decent chance that much of the painting's history, including its last religious use, took place in France.
mytailorisrich 3y ago
I know nothing about this specific painting but the fact that it was painted by an Italian artist in Italy is a red herring. As far as I understand the law allows any significant art piece in France to be deemed a National Treasure. Think of it more as an important asset for the country rather than something that was made in France or by a French person. In French the definition is that it is important to the national "patrimoine", which is the same word used to refer to someone's assets/estate.
- sombragris 3y ago
  Just a little nitpick on the French word. Since it's from Latin, there's also a Spanish cognate, patrimonio. The word has no exact English equivalent but as parent said, it could mean someone's assets/estate. I would like to add that sometimes it can also be translated as "heritage". This could serve to complete the idea of the concept behind it.
  - idiomaddict 3y ago
    Patrimony is the English word for money, goods, or cultural goods one receives from their father. It also refers to something that belongs in a church, like a relic. Even inside Romance languages, false friends exist, so I wouldn’t assume the meanings are exactly the same in Spanish and French. (Obligado vs. Obrigado, for the classic Spanish Portuguese example)
    - sombragris 3y ago
      > Patrimony is the English word That's correct. But as a translator, that's a word I wouldn't even consider to use as a translation for patrimonio or similar. Almost no English speaker would understand me. At the very best that person would consider my translation as very idiosyncratic or quirky. > Even inside Romance languages, false friends exist, Also correct, but in this case the cognates have almost equivalent meanings. See, for example: https://dictionary.reverso.net/french-spanish/patrimoine https://dictionary.reverso.net/french-spanish/patrimoine
poulpy123 3y ago
Because it was in France at the hands of a french national
atmosx 3y ago
Seriously? The Louvre is literally made of Greek (two of the 3 most visited art pieces are Greek), Italian and Egyptian art. That’s it. There is very little French artistry. The French masters came a bit later and have their own museum which I wish to visit one day. Doesn’t matter _how_ it only matters that the French pay attention. Italy doesn’t need one painting, the entire country is stunning and financially speaking “suffering” from tourism. I mean it is a huge source of income, but they lost the “locals quality of life” balance with tourism long time ago.
- COM9 3y ago
  You're not totally wrong, buy there's a really nice Delacroix not far from the totally underwhelming Mona Lisa / Joconde. (Yes "later", but still a must see.) And I'm not totally sure, but I would bet that a lot of early medieval Christian art is French? I mean the Carolingians / Merovingians must have left something no? And if the Louvre doesn't have impressionist art I would be totally disappointed? You're probably talking about the tennis court museum (edit: Jeu de paume museum, not far from the Louvre), but still? I think the problem is that the Louvre is so big than you're gonna miss stuff.
  - Ichthypresbyter 3y ago
    The Mona Lisa, of course, was completed in France. In terms of French art, the hall of 19th century French paintings is impressive, and interesting as you can clearly see which paintings are in the guidebook as "must see"- there is usually a huge crowd around Liberty Leading the People (the painting you mention), a somewhat smaller one around The Raft of the Medusa, and paintings like the huge and spectacular Coronation of Napoleon on the opposite wall or the powerful The Lictors Bring Brutus the Bodies of his Sons further along are essentially ignored.
- vasco 3y ago
  Your comment was helpful thanks! I did say I wasn't knowledgeable in this area, sorry if it was a stupid question to you.
  - 3y ago
kergonath 3y ago
The criterion are where the work is and how significant it is. It is about culture, not nationalism.
mkoubaa 3y ago
Borders between neighboring countries change over the centuries and are virtually meaningless over long periods of time with how many people move between them
hprotagonist 3y ago
“italian” and “italy” are about 1100 years younger than the painting.
- dmoy 3y ago
  Well, 500 years at least. The painting is from ~1280, and it's currently 2023, which is less than 800 years later, so Italy by definition can't have been founded 1100 years after the painting. (Can't have been... couldn't have been... can't wouldn't have been? What is the past-in-the-future perfect tense?)
snickerbockers 3y ago
Same way all the ancient Egyptian stuff ends up that way.

by vasco 3y ago

Does someone know how a painting made by an italian artist in Italy can be declared a French national treasure and blocked from export? I'm not knowledgeable in this area.

wahnfrieden 3y ago

The will of state power

Glant 3y ago

The law of finders keepers

lelandfe 3y ago
“‘Finders keepers, shut up’ has worked very well for us so far” https://youtube.com/watch?v=x73PkUvArJY https://youtube.com/watch?v=x73PkUvArJY
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
kergonath 3y ago
It’s Europe. Borders and people moved around constantly, and nationalism was not a thing for most of the continent’s History. Italy as a country would not exist for ~600 years when it was painted. I haven’t seen a complete study of where and how that painting moved since it was done, but there are plenty of possibilities that don’t involve anything dodgy.

FartyMcFarter 3y ago

Well, it's in France. Possession is 9 tenths of the law.

Ichthypresbyter 3y ago

When this story first appeared, it was noted that the woman who owned the painting had lived in Compiègne. Compiègne was the site of a royal residence from 1374 until the Revolution, and the site of a Carmelite convent (which received significant royal support) from 1641 until 1792. The painting could well have belonged to the convent, been sold off locally when it was closed, and either stayed in the family of the original purchaser or made its way through various local antique shops. So there's a decent chance that much of the painting's history, including its last religious use, took place in France.

mytailorisrich 3y ago

I know nothing about this specific painting but the fact that it was painted by an Italian artist in Italy is a red herring. As far as I understand the law allows any significant art piece in France to be deemed a National Treasure. Think of it more as an important asset for the country rather than something that was made in France or by a French person. In French the definition is that it is important to the national "patrimoine", which is the same word used to refer to someone's assets/estate.

sombragris 3y ago
Just a little nitpick on the French word. Since it's from Latin, there's also a Spanish cognate, patrimonio. The word has no exact English equivalent but as parent said, it could mean someone's assets/estate. I would like to add that sometimes it can also be translated as "heritage". This could serve to complete the idea of the concept behind it.
- idiomaddict 3y ago
  Patrimony is the English word for money, goods, or cultural goods one receives from their father. It also refers to something that belongs in a church, like a relic. Even inside Romance languages, false friends exist, so I wouldn’t assume the meanings are exactly the same in Spanish and French. (Obligado vs. Obrigado, for the classic Spanish Portuguese example)
  - sombragris 3y ago
    > Patrimony is the English word That's correct. But as a translator, that's a word I wouldn't even consider to use as a translation for patrimonio or similar. Almost no English speaker would understand me. At the very best that person would consider my translation as very idiosyncratic or quirky. > Even inside Romance languages, false friends exist, Also correct, but in this case the cognates have almost equivalent meanings. See, for example: https://dictionary.reverso.net/french-spanish/patrimoine https://dictionary.reverso.net/french-spanish/patrimoine

poulpy123 3y ago

Because it was in France at the hands of a french national

atmosx 3y ago

Seriously? The Louvre is literally made of Greek (two of the 3 most visited art pieces are Greek), Italian and Egyptian art. That’s it. There is very little French artistry. The French masters came a bit later and have their own museum which I wish to visit one day. Doesn’t matter _how_ it only matters that the French pay attention. Italy doesn’t need one painting, the entire country is stunning and financially speaking “suffering” from tourism. I mean it is a huge source of income, but they lost the “locals quality of life” balance with tourism long time ago.

COM9 3y ago
You're not totally wrong, buy there's a really nice Delacroix not far from the totally underwhelming Mona Lisa / Joconde. (Yes "later", but still a must see.) And I'm not totally sure, but I would bet that a lot of early medieval Christian art is French? I mean the Carolingians / Merovingians must have left something no? And if the Louvre doesn't have impressionist art I would be totally disappointed? You're probably talking about the tennis court museum (edit: Jeu de paume museum, not far from the Louvre), but still? I think the problem is that the Louvre is so big than you're gonna miss stuff.
- Ichthypresbyter 3y ago
  The Mona Lisa, of course, was completed in France. In terms of French art, the hall of 19th century French paintings is impressive, and interesting as you can clearly see which paintings are in the guidebook as "must see"- there is usually a huge crowd around Liberty Leading the People (the painting you mention), a somewhat smaller one around The Raft of the Medusa, and paintings like the huge and spectacular Coronation of Napoleon on the opposite wall or the powerful The Lictors Bring Brutus the Bodies of his Sons further along are essentially ignored.
vasco 3y ago
Your comment was helpful thanks! I did say I wasn't knowledgeable in this area, sorry if it was a stupid question to you.
- 3y ago

kergonath 3y ago

The criterion are where the work is and how significant it is. It is about culture, not nationalism.

mkoubaa 3y ago

Borders between neighboring countries change over the centuries and are virtually meaningless over long periods of time with how many people move between them

hprotagonist 3y ago

“italian” and “italy” are about 1100 years younger than the painting.

dmoy 3y ago
Well, 500 years at least. The painting is from ~1280, and it's currently 2023, which is less than 800 years later, so Italy by definition can't have been founded 1100 years after the painting. (Can't have been... couldn't have been... can't wouldn't have been? What is the past-in-the-future perfect tense?)

snickerbockers 3y ago

Same way all the ancient Egyptian stuff ends up that way.