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Incentives only work on low-skilled labor that is quantifiable. Eg. more money for flipping more burgers. It is not a settled science paying people a lot more w

Incentives only work on low-skilled labor that is quantifiable. Eg. more money for flipping more burgers. It is not a settled science paying people a lot more will automagically solve problems. People crave Autonomy, Mastery & Purpose: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbR2V1UeB_A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbR2V1UeB_A What is definitely going to happen is you will attract the cowboys who have convinced themselves and can convince you to pay top dollar. They will come up with lets do kubernetes + service-mesh + multi-cloud hybrid + blockchain + crypto + AI/MI on this COBOL ... They will take top dollar, make a bigger pile of mess, sell it as a success story and move on make bigger messes.

whatshisface 3y ago
250k is not top dollar, it is average for experienced engineers.
- Kranar 3y ago
  250k is not top dollar for programmers, but it is top dollar in absolute terms. The point is that you don't incentivize better work by paying top dollar. Taking a mediocre developer and paying them more doesn't make them a better developer or even motivate them to become better. It can attract people who are already good software developers absolutely, but the second point being made is that you also attract a lot of charlatans as well and so just throwing more money at the problem isn't exactly a great solution. You need a solid culture to go with the money.
- ramilefu 3y ago
  Depends on where you live. An “experienced engineer” is going to make a lot less if they live in Mississippi than if they were in California. 250k for the former is likely “top dollar”.
  - 1323portloo 3y ago
    If you are a small shop, sure. If you are a major employer you will either meet market rate and get top candidates (willing to live in your area) or you will get whatever candidates decided to live in Mississippi.
  - bluefirebrand 3y ago
    People on HN are convinced if you don't live in California maximizing your salary, you're not capable of doing so. Highlighted in the sibling comment: "you will get whatever candidates decided to live in Mississippi" As if top talent never decides to live in Mississippi and accept 250k/year as their salary ceiling...
    - 1323portloo 3y ago
      I didn't say that top talent doesn't live in Mississippi, I just said you will get what candidates DO decide to live in Mississippi. If you want top talent, you have to advertise nationally, and be willing to pay the national rate. I live in a city that is quite poor for an employer that is quite large. They pay slightly better than average for the area except for their engineers and upper management, that goes to market rate because they are willing to hire the best available.
    - johnnyanmac 3y ago
      People also seem to forget that there are "cost of living adjustments" for a reason. Many companies will fight and suggest that you don't need salary X if you don't live in place Y. It's not impossible and $250k is nowhere near the ceiling. But you're not going to find those jobs on a causal LinkedIn search like you would in California.
- rumdz 3y ago
  Outside of CA?
  - metabagel 3y ago
    Even in Southern California, $250K is a very high salary for developers, at least in embedded systems, which is the space I’m familiar with.
    - winrid 3y ago
      embedded system engineers have always had low salaries... I don't think I've ever seen an embedded C or C++ job pay more than $130k. I made more than that writing JS almost ten years ago..
- Miner49er 3y ago
  No, that is not average, maybe in high COL areas, but that obviously would then not be average.
- metabagel 3y ago
  Outside the Bay Area, $250K is top dollar.
  - cebert 3y ago
    Not really, even in the Midwest, such as the Metro Detroit region, 250k is definitely attainable. I’m in that band and live there.
    - myko 3y ago
      Base or with bonuses? I find it hard to get roles in the midwest (large metro in Ohio) clearing 200k, though sometimes bonuses get you up there.
      - cebert 3y ago
        TC, my base isn’t that high.
  - omginternets 3y ago
    It definitely is not.
    - jongjong 3y ago
      WTF. I worked on some high exposure projects as a senior dev and never a final offer above $130k USD. Even after haggling hard at a company I had been at for 3 years and they told me I was their top, highest paid engineer and it led me to quit. Then I got approached by Facebook to work in London HQ and the offer they were dangling was £100GBP which was about $130k USD. Highest offer I ever got before I even got to the final round of interviews was $160k USD from a well known crypto company but for some reason the head of engineering didn't show up to the final interview at the last minute after I flew through all the tech tests as those devs who interviewed admitted. It was weird. I always assumed the reported 250k plus salaries were fake news or only reserved for children of powerful people.
      - 3y ago
- rybosworld 3y ago
  This is a lie that is commonly spread here and on reddit.
- bogota 3y ago
  250k with government perks and retirement is pretty nice. Also for 250k cash you will find lots of people willing to learn cobal.
VoodooJuJu 3y ago
>People crave Autonomy, Mastery & Purpose I'm not a sack of chemicals whose desires can be reduced down to some pithy pseudo-scientific Maslowian quip. The only thing I crave from my job is cash so I can take care of me and my family. 250k/yr for a COBOL position would suit that end just fine. You can keep your autonomy, mastery, purpose, and all the other foofoo, just hand me the check so I can be on my way.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  > I'm not a sack of chemicals whose desires can be reduced down to some pithy pseudo-scientific Maslowian quip. The only thing I crave from my job is cash I thought you were against reductionism?
  - VoodooJuJu 3y ago
    https://www.dictionary.com/browse/reductionism https://www.dictionary.com/browse/reductionism
  - Cyphase 3y ago
    They were replying to someone who was saying something about "people"; they only said something about "I" (themselves).
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  >The only thing I crave from my job is cash so I can take care of me and my family sounds like purpose, of which you need mastery of some skillset to earn your autonomy to furfill. That said, I'm sure there's much easier ways to earn 250k than untangling a governement codebase. Not that they are offering that to begin with. >just hand me the check so I can be on my way. Yeah, you probably wouldn't pass clearance with that attitude if we're being frank.

whatshisface 3y ago

250k is not top dollar, it is average for experienced engineers.

Kranar 3y ago
250k is not top dollar for programmers, but it is top dollar in absolute terms. The point is that you don't incentivize better work by paying top dollar. Taking a mediocre developer and paying them more doesn't make them a better developer or even motivate them to become better. It can attract people who are already good software developers absolutely, but the second point being made is that you also attract a lot of charlatans as well and so just throwing more money at the problem isn't exactly a great solution. You need a solid culture to go with the money.
ramilefu 3y ago
Depends on where you live. An “experienced engineer” is going to make a lot less if they live in Mississippi than if they were in California. 250k for the former is likely “top dollar”.
- 1323portloo 3y ago
  If you are a small shop, sure. If you are a major employer you will either meet market rate and get top candidates (willing to live in your area) or you will get whatever candidates decided to live in Mississippi.
- bluefirebrand 3y ago
  People on HN are convinced if you don't live in California maximizing your salary, you're not capable of doing so. Highlighted in the sibling comment: "you will get whatever candidates decided to live in Mississippi" As if top talent never decides to live in Mississippi and accept 250k/year as their salary ceiling...
  - 1323portloo 3y ago
    I didn't say that top talent doesn't live in Mississippi, I just said you will get what candidates DO decide to live in Mississippi. If you want top talent, you have to advertise nationally, and be willing to pay the national rate. I live in a city that is quite poor for an employer that is quite large. They pay slightly better than average for the area except for their engineers and upper management, that goes to market rate because they are willing to hire the best available.
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    People also seem to forget that there are "cost of living adjustments" for a reason. Many companies will fight and suggest that you don't need salary X if you don't live in place Y. It's not impossible and $250k is nowhere near the ceiling. But you're not going to find those jobs on a causal LinkedIn search like you would in California.
rumdz 3y ago
Outside of CA?
- metabagel 3y ago
  Even in Southern California, $250K is a very high salary for developers, at least in embedded systems, which is the space I’m familiar with.
  - winrid 3y ago
    embedded system engineers have always had low salaries... I don't think I've ever seen an embedded C or C++ job pay more than $130k. I made more than that writing JS almost ten years ago..
Miner49er 3y ago
No, that is not average, maybe in high COL areas, but that obviously would then not be average.
metabagel 3y ago
Outside the Bay Area, $250K is top dollar.
- cebert 3y ago
  Not really, even in the Midwest, such as the Metro Detroit region, 250k is definitely attainable. I’m in that band and live there.
  - myko 3y ago
    Base or with bonuses? I find it hard to get roles in the midwest (large metro in Ohio) clearing 200k, though sometimes bonuses get you up there.
    - cebert 3y ago
      TC, my base isn’t that high.
- omginternets 3y ago
  It definitely is not.
  - jongjong 3y ago
    WTF. I worked on some high exposure projects as a senior dev and never a final offer above $130k USD. Even after haggling hard at a company I had been at for 3 years and they told me I was their top, highest paid engineer and it led me to quit. Then I got approached by Facebook to work in London HQ and the offer they were dangling was £100GBP which was about $130k USD. Highest offer I ever got before I even got to the final round of interviews was $160k USD from a well known crypto company but for some reason the head of engineering didn't show up to the final interview at the last minute after I flew through all the tech tests as those devs who interviewed admitted. It was weird. I always assumed the reported 250k plus salaries were fake news or only reserved for children of powerful people.
    - 3y ago
rybosworld 3y ago
This is a lie that is commonly spread here and on reddit.
bogota 3y ago
250k with government perks and retirement is pretty nice. Also for 250k cash you will find lots of people willing to learn cobal.

VoodooJuJu 3y ago

>People crave Autonomy, Mastery & Purpose I'm not a sack of chemicals whose desires can be reduced down to some pithy pseudo-scientific Maslowian quip. The only thing I crave from my job is cash so I can take care of me and my family. 250k/yr for a COBOL position would suit that end just fine. You can keep your autonomy, mastery, purpose, and all the other foofoo, just hand me the check so I can be on my way.

wolverine876 3y ago
> I'm not a sack of chemicals whose desires can be reduced down to some pithy pseudo-scientific Maslowian quip. The only thing I crave from my job is cash I thought you were against reductionism?
- VoodooJuJu 3y ago
  https://www.dictionary.com/browse/reductionism https://www.dictionary.com/browse/reductionism
- Cyphase 3y ago
  They were replying to someone who was saying something about "people"; they only said something about "I" (themselves).
johnnyanmac 3y ago
>The only thing I crave from my job is cash so I can take care of me and my family sounds like purpose, of which you need mastery of some skillset to earn your autonomy to furfill. That said, I'm sure there's much easier ways to earn 250k than untangling a governement codebase. Not that they are offering that to begin with. >just hand me the check so I can be on my way. Yeah, you probably wouldn't pass clearance with that attitude if we're being frank.