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Thread hijack: Is there a simple cause for the terrible longevity I'm getting with LED bulbs in my house? Regardless of the bulb brand, regardless of the fixtur

Thread hijack: Is there a simple cause for the terrible longevity I'm getting with LED bulbs in my house? Regardless of the bulb brand, regardless of the fixture type, regardless of bulb orientation, seemingly regardless of the amount of use my LED bulbs start flickering and periodically turning off after the bulbs are 1-2 years old. It's maddening. I've tried expensive name brand bulbs (Phillips being the most recent one that comes to mind) and less well-regarded bulbs (Feit Electric, Sylvania, IKEA) and my experiences haven't varied. I love the quality of the light and the instant full brightness. I hate that I'm always replacing a bulb somewhere.

AnonC 3y ago
Not an expert. The LED lamps require a driver circuit, which are generally poorly designed. Any gains in the possible lifespan of LEDs is offset by these, allowing manufacturers to sell LED lamps more often…not as often as older technologies, but it gets there sometimes. Poor drivers can also cause flickering and other issues.
- jtbayly 3y ago
  And at 10 times the cost! So glad we’ve “saved” so much electricity.
saalweachter 3y ago
So it's not going to be appropriate everywhere, but when I have a cursed light fixture [live in an old house, out in the boonies], I've had good luck with the ultra-fancy designer LED bulbs that try to look like old Edison bulbs. They're usually not as bright as other bulbs, which isn't suitable for all applications [although desirable in others].
Syonyk 3y ago
Heat. Almost all modern fixtures count as "enclosed" - and most LED bulbs, if you look closely on the case, aren't rated for "enclosed or recessed" use. Basically, they're fine, if they're upright in a table lamp or so. Most modern fixtures are recessed, and the bulbs are "upside down" - so the heat builds up in the base of them, where the power electronics are, and simply fries them. There's a typical, handwaving, "For each 10C above design temperature, the lifetime halves" curve you can apply, and those power electronics are running way above design temperature in "almost all modern uses." So they die quickly. An enclosed rated bulb is worth trying, if you can find one that does what you want. But good luck. They're cheap consumer devices at this point, built to a price point.
calamari4065 3y ago
There's two main failure modes: thermal and interference. Thermal should be obvious. The components in the bulb's internal power supply can only withstand so much heat. Interference is harder to track down. Old dimmers designed for incandescent bulbs will destroy LEDs very quickly. Since the problem seems so endemic, I suspect you have a more serious issue with your electrical service. Your AC voltage may be too high or low, or there's some equipment nearby or in your house that's putting a bunch of noise into the AC lines. Likely causes are old, improperly filtered inductive loads. That'd be anything with a big motor in it: washer, dryer, fridge, HVAC, pumps and fans. If you have any old dimmers anywhere in your house, remove them. You can also call your electric utility to see if they can send someone to check it out. They're usually pretty serious about interference like this because it can spread.
- marcosdumay 3y ago
  Hum... AFAIK, if the LEDs are controlled by a resistive load, any harmful interference should be easy to remove by just adding a varistor between its pins. (Those "filters" for electrical outlets usually have exactly that.) If the LEDs have a switching power supply, they should survive basically any high-frequency noise, and any overvoltage that is small enough to pass unnoticed. Leaving only small average voltages to deal with (like from dimmers). Those should be detectable with a multimeter.
  - Syonyk 3y ago
    They're a switching power supply. But you're making a mistake. You're confusing "should, in a competently designed power supply," with "does, in something trimmed to the absolute lowest cost that will mostly make it through warranty on a product in which nobody keeps the receipts and such around to make the warranty claim."
    - marcosdumay 3y ago
      Well, ok, if you insist on iterating on the design until you take the last tenth of a cent from the marginal cost, you'll get something that can't handle transients or small excess voltage. But iterating on the design is expensive too. And that optimization is well within the region where your suppliers will often cheat(?) and add all that quality back without telling you just because some of their customers demand it and it's cheaper to give you high-quality products than to retool their factories. Or, in other words, it's quite possible that you have a bulb here or there fail due to those. But you won't get consistent failure with several brands.
Tade0 3y ago
I had the same problem and it's the light fixture. LEDs (or actually their power electronics) can't stand nearly the same temperatures that incandescent lights can, so they get cooked. You'll notice brownish stuff coming out of the base when it happens. My fixture was a series of thick, donut-shaped aluminium rings connected via spacers forming a sphere around the bulb approximately the size of a melon. Three such spheres in total. The damn thing destroyed two whole sets of lights before I: -Disassembled one of the fixtures so that only the top is left, exposing the ceramic base. -Replaced the other two with "efficient mood lighting" 2W 2700K bulbs - those with a transparent head mimicking a glass bulb. It's not particularly beautiful, but hadn't had any problems since.
svilen_dobrev 3y ago
flickering: all them use switching power supply, which if wrong ones or in wrong conditions, usualy die in few months. Not only because of heat, but also close-to-limits voltages and such. And because they put $0.15 capacitors ones instead of $0.25 ones. And this is not only (cheap) home stuff, you can see this effect walking around in parks or streets, where a lamp is $100.. i have 7-8 long-fluorescent-substitues doing this at home, replaced capacitors in 2 of them, then replaced whole power supplies in 2 others.. then replaced the rest with whole new lamps as the price vs hassle/time-waste did not make sense.. Edit: but as sibling in thread says, if it soo repeatable, something is wrong in your electricity network at home. There is some source of disturbance, maybe even at neighbours. Long ago one bad laptop switching power supply was making an LCD display go crazy 4 rooms away.
tzs 3y ago
I've had great LED longevity. Early in 2017 my electric company was doing some kind of instant rebate deal with retailers so that the rebate was taken off automatically at the register. It brought Walmart's "Great Value" brand non-dimmable 800 and 450 lumen bulbs down to $0.17. I went around the house counting bulbs, found that I had something like 26 incandescent 60 W or 40 W bulbs, and bought enough Walmart bulbs to replace them, plus another dozen to have spares. Since then all my non-smart bulbs other than the small incandescents in some appliances, two incandescents used as heaters in my well shed, and two that are in places I don't go (attic and crawlspace) have been those Great Value bulbs. I've only had one fail in the 6.5 years since then. That was one in the garage that I dropped onto the concrete floor when screwing it in. They are plastic, not glass, so it didn't shatter like a glass bulb would, but it did not work afterwards. I gave it to someone at work who was interested in taking it apart to see what broke. If I recall correctly there is an inductor on the PCB is just attached by some thing wire leads and one of those leads broke.
beej71 3y ago
Personally I've had way better luck going with the next-to-cheapest brand versus the cheapest brand. Since you've tried numerous brands, that implies to me (and my tiny sample size) that the problem for you is not the bulb quality, FWIW.

AnonC 3y ago

Not an expert. The LED lamps require a driver circuit, which are generally poorly designed. Any gains in the possible lifespan of LEDs is offset by these, allowing manufacturers to sell LED lamps more often…not as often as older technologies, but it gets there sometimes. Poor drivers can also cause flickering and other issues.

jtbayly 3y ago
And at 10 times the cost! So glad we’ve “saved” so much electricity.

saalweachter 3y ago

So it's not going to be appropriate everywhere, but when I have a cursed light fixture [live in an old house, out in the boonies], I've had good luck with the ultra-fancy designer LED bulbs that try to look like old Edison bulbs. They're usually not as bright as other bulbs, which isn't suitable for all applications [although desirable in others].

Syonyk 3y ago

Heat. Almost all modern fixtures count as "enclosed" - and most LED bulbs, if you look closely on the case, aren't rated for "enclosed or recessed" use. Basically, they're fine, if they're upright in a table lamp or so. Most modern fixtures are recessed, and the bulbs are "upside down" - so the heat builds up in the base of them, where the power electronics are, and simply fries them. There's a typical, handwaving, "For each 10C above design temperature, the lifetime halves" curve you can apply, and those power electronics are running way above design temperature in "almost all modern uses." So they die quickly. An enclosed rated bulb is worth trying, if you can find one that does what you want. But good luck. They're cheap consumer devices at this point, built to a price point.

calamari4065 3y ago

There's two main failure modes: thermal and interference. Thermal should be obvious. The components in the bulb's internal power supply can only withstand so much heat. Interference is harder to track down. Old dimmers designed for incandescent bulbs will destroy LEDs very quickly. Since the problem seems so endemic, I suspect you have a more serious issue with your electrical service. Your AC voltage may be too high or low, or there's some equipment nearby or in your house that's putting a bunch of noise into the AC lines. Likely causes are old, improperly filtered inductive loads. That'd be anything with a big motor in it: washer, dryer, fridge, HVAC, pumps and fans. If you have any old dimmers anywhere in your house, remove them. You can also call your electric utility to see if they can send someone to check it out. They're usually pretty serious about interference like this because it can spread.

marcosdumay 3y ago
Hum... AFAIK, if the LEDs are controlled by a resistive load, any harmful interference should be easy to remove by just adding a varistor between its pins. (Those "filters" for electrical outlets usually have exactly that.) If the LEDs have a switching power supply, they should survive basically any high-frequency noise, and any overvoltage that is small enough to pass unnoticed. Leaving only small average voltages to deal with (like from dimmers). Those should be detectable with a multimeter.
- Syonyk 3y ago
  They're a switching power supply. But you're making a mistake. You're confusing "should, in a competently designed power supply," with "does, in something trimmed to the absolute lowest cost that will mostly make it through warranty on a product in which nobody keeps the receipts and such around to make the warranty claim."
  - marcosdumay 3y ago
    Well, ok, if you insist on iterating on the design until you take the last tenth of a cent from the marginal cost, you'll get something that can't handle transients or small excess voltage. But iterating on the design is expensive too. And that optimization is well within the region where your suppliers will often cheat(?) and add all that quality back without telling you just because some of their customers demand it and it's cheaper to give you high-quality products than to retool their factories. Or, in other words, it's quite possible that you have a bulb here or there fail due to those. But you won't get consistent failure with several brands.

Tade0 3y ago

I had the same problem and it's the light fixture. LEDs (or actually their power electronics) can't stand nearly the same temperatures that incandescent lights can, so they get cooked. You'll notice brownish stuff coming out of the base when it happens. My fixture was a series of thick, donut-shaped aluminium rings connected via spacers forming a sphere around the bulb approximately the size of a melon. Three such spheres in total. The damn thing destroyed two whole sets of lights before I: -Disassembled one of the fixtures so that only the top is left, exposing the ceramic base. -Replaced the other two with "efficient mood lighting" 2W 2700K bulbs - those with a transparent head mimicking a glass bulb. It's not particularly beautiful, but hadn't had any problems since.

svilen_dobrev 3y ago

flickering: all them use switching power supply, which if wrong ones or in wrong conditions, usualy die in few months. Not only because of heat, but also close-to-limits voltages and such. And because they put $0.15 capacitors ones instead of $0.25 ones. And this is not only (cheap) home stuff, you can see this effect walking around in parks or streets, where a lamp is $100.. i have 7-8 long-fluorescent-substitues doing this at home, replaced capacitors in 2 of them, then replaced whole power supplies in 2 others.. then replaced the rest with whole new lamps as the price vs hassle/time-waste did not make sense.. Edit: but as sibling in thread says, if it soo repeatable, something is wrong in your electricity network at home. There is some source of disturbance, maybe even at neighbours. Long ago one bad laptop switching power supply was making an LCD display go crazy 4 rooms away.

tzs 3y ago

I've had great LED longevity. Early in 2017 my electric company was doing some kind of instant rebate deal with retailers so that the rebate was taken off automatically at the register. It brought Walmart's "Great Value" brand non-dimmable 800 and 450 lumen bulbs down to $0.17. I went around the house counting bulbs, found that I had something like 26 incandescent 60 W or 40 W bulbs, and bought enough Walmart bulbs to replace them, plus another dozen to have spares. Since then all my non-smart bulbs other than the small incandescents in some appliances, two incandescents used as heaters in my well shed, and two that are in places I don't go (attic and crawlspace) have been those Great Value bulbs. I've only had one fail in the 6.5 years since then. That was one in the garage that I dropped onto the concrete floor when screwing it in. They are plastic, not glass, so it didn't shatter like a glass bulb would, but it did not work afterwards. I gave it to someone at work who was interested in taking it apart to see what broke. If I recall correctly there is an inductor on the PCB is just attached by some thing wire leads and one of those leads broke.

beej71 3y ago

Personally I've had way better luck going with the next-to-cheapest brand versus the cheapest brand. Since you've tried numerous brands, that implies to me (and my tiny sample size) that the problem for you is not the bulb quality, FWIW.