4 ms·

I think something that is partly to blame is the expansive licensure scheme, and how those licenses have become a monopolistic edge to protect and expand. Many

I think something that is partly to blame is the expansive licensure scheme, and how those licenses have become a monopolistic edge to protect and expand. Many professions have required a license, and it is the responsibility of the organization that issue those license to protect an expand their authority, preventing competition, and pushing up prices higher. The license requirement creates a perpetuating lobby, which I think is partly to blame for real estate agent commission issue. Do we really need to enshrine into law every professions market corner? A certification law would do just as well, but it would not have the effect of blocking competition, preventing market, disruption, and forcing people who want to practice that particular profession to constantly pay a private association for the right to be licensed.

Tangurena2 3y ago
[flagged]
- CPLX 3y ago
  > Occupational licensing was originally developed to prevent black people from being employed. You’ll need to cite some evidence for this. Occupational guilds and membership associations stretch back a lot further into the Middle Ages in Europe versus the timeline you’re suggesting here. There are also some very common sense public policy issues at play like making sure people who say they can cut hair or fix your teeth actually know how to do it. Granted they’ve been misused as well for various less honorable reasons but the narrative you’re presenting here doesn’t totally hold together.
  - walthamstow 3y ago
    Fix teeth, yes, cut hair, absolutely not. How can you conflate those two things? It is utterly bizarre for the state to license barbers and hairdressers, especially in the so-called land o' the free.
    - underseacables 3y ago
      It has gotten much worse. Flower arrangement, interior decorators, every profession wants in on the licensure monopoly. There are definitely things where you want the state to make sure that someone has a minimum level of education and training. Medicine, law, engineering, but some things are not really necessary anymore, such as the dietetics license. Certainly not a license to be an interior decorator, or arrange flowers. The license locks in professionals to continually give money to a private organization every year, and keep out everyone else. https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/you-shouldnt-need-a-license-to-be-a-florist/2022/12/23/48b2961a-82d3-11ed-8738-ed7217de2775_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/you-shouldnt-need-a-... https://bostonrealestatetimes.com/advancing-commercial-interior-design-a-call-for-licensing-in-massachusetts/ https://bostonrealestatetimes.com/advancing-commercial-inter... https://citizens.org/dietetic-association-and-efforts-to-monopolize-nutrition/ https://citizens.org/dietetic-association-and-efforts-to-mon...
      - walthamstow 3y ago
        I remember the John Oliver segment from a few years ago The added layer that blew my tiny British mind was that the licensing is done by states (because somehow licensing barbers was omitted from the constitution) The consequence of this is that if you want to move or if you live in a state border city like KCMO, you have to do the licensing all over again with another state. Bonkers, as we say here.
        PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
        Imagine living in Dover, and deciding to move just 26 miles to Calais. Quelle horror! You will need to do the licensing all over again! (at least, you certainly will post-Brexit; not 100% sure what the pre-Brexit story was on that, but I have a feeling it may have similar)
        walthamstow 3y ago
        I'd rather not imagine living in Dover if you don't mind
  - camgunz 3y ago
    Literally the first ddg result for occupational licensing racism: https://www.minneapolisfed.org/article/2022/how-occupational-licensing-limits-access-to-jobs-among-workers-of-color https://www.minneapolisfed.org/article/2022/how-occupational... EDIT: oh I guess I read too hastily and this is about the original motivation. For that you'd probably want to read Competition and Coercion by Robert Higgs. A lot of statutes and ordinances were adopted in the wake of the South's loss in the Civil War to maintain the status quo of white dominance in business
- aftbit 3y ago
  Vagrancy is not a particularly American crime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagrancy_Act_1824 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagrancy_Act_1824
DennisP 3y ago
A real estate license mostly teaches what you need to know about the laws around real estate transactions. It's pretty easy to get. Take the courses, pass the test, and you're in, there's no restricted access. You can set up your own brokerage and everything. But if you want your brokerage to have access to the MLS system, you have to join the Realtor organization. That's where the monopolistic behavior creeps in.
- philips 3y ago
  Except in Oregon you also have to have a minimum number of transactions per year or have a “senior broker” sign off on all your deals (for a price).
- judge2020 3y ago
  Most states require some years of experience before you can become an independent broker, in Florida it's 2 years of active work / 5 years in the system.
- poulsbohemian 3y ago
  Your location may be different, but what you are describing is not universal or even common in my experience working in multiple states. Yes, it is absolutely true that there should be a higher barrier to entry and even after "first renewal" (which is normally a second round of education), there isn't enough training before we let new agents loose into the world. That said - in every state I'm aware of, you work under a licensed broker who has additional licensing, training, and legal responsibility. Until you've reached that level of licensing it is not possible to set up your own brokerage. I've seen a work around where a non-licensed business owner paid someone to be their broker, but that regardless there has to be someone with the right licensing running the business. Also - whether MLS members must also be Realtors is a rule of the MLS and not a universal requirement. The NAR, nor MLSs, do not set commissions. In fact, much of the MLS rule changes in recent years that I've observed have been about making sure non-Realtor licensees have market access. It's right there in our paperwork that I show clients where we ask permission so that the seller knows who will be entering their home.
jjoonathan 3y ago
We should always have several competing licensing bodies. 1 licensing body: never considers the cost of gatekeeping, only the self-benefit. 2 licensing bodies: they are forced to weigh the cost of gatekeeping against the self-benefit, but you might get a race to the bottom. 3 licensing bodies: they are forced to weigh the cost of gatekeeping against the self-benefit, and if they race to the bottom too hard we can decertify one and retain competition until we can bud off a replacement.

Tangurena2 3y ago

[flagged]

CPLX 3y ago
> Occupational licensing was originally developed to prevent black people from being employed. You’ll need to cite some evidence for this. Occupational guilds and membership associations stretch back a lot further into the Middle Ages in Europe versus the timeline you’re suggesting here. There are also some very common sense public policy issues at play like making sure people who say they can cut hair or fix your teeth actually know how to do it. Granted they’ve been misused as well for various less honorable reasons but the narrative you’re presenting here doesn’t totally hold together.
- walthamstow 3y ago
  Fix teeth, yes, cut hair, absolutely not. How can you conflate those two things? It is utterly bizarre for the state to license barbers and hairdressers, especially in the so-called land o' the free.
  - underseacables 3y ago
    It has gotten much worse. Flower arrangement, interior decorators, every profession wants in on the licensure monopoly. There are definitely things where you want the state to make sure that someone has a minimum level of education and training. Medicine, law, engineering, but some things are not really necessary anymore, such as the dietetics license. Certainly not a license to be an interior decorator, or arrange flowers. The license locks in professionals to continually give money to a private organization every year, and keep out everyone else. https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/you-shouldnt-need-a-license-to-be-a-florist/2022/12/23/48b2961a-82d3-11ed-8738-ed7217de2775_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/you-shouldnt-need-a-... https://bostonrealestatetimes.com/advancing-commercial-interior-design-a-call-for-licensing-in-massachusetts/ https://bostonrealestatetimes.com/advancing-commercial-inter... https://citizens.org/dietetic-association-and-efforts-to-monopolize-nutrition/ https://citizens.org/dietetic-association-and-efforts-to-mon...
    - walthamstow 3y ago
      I remember the John Oliver segment from a few years ago The added layer that blew my tiny British mind was that the licensing is done by states (because somehow licensing barbers was omitted from the constitution) The consequence of this is that if you want to move or if you live in a state border city like KCMO, you have to do the licensing all over again with another state. Bonkers, as we say here.
      - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
        Imagine living in Dover, and deciding to move just 26 miles to Calais. Quelle horror! You will need to do the licensing all over again! (at least, you certainly will post-Brexit; not 100% sure what the pre-Brexit story was on that, but I have a feeling it may have similar)
        walthamstow 3y ago
        I'd rather not imagine living in Dover if you don't mind
- camgunz 3y ago
  Literally the first ddg result for occupational licensing racism: https://www.minneapolisfed.org/article/2022/how-occupational-licensing-limits-access-to-jobs-among-workers-of-color https://www.minneapolisfed.org/article/2022/how-occupational... EDIT: oh I guess I read too hastily and this is about the original motivation. For that you'd probably want to read Competition and Coercion by Robert Higgs. A lot of statutes and ordinances were adopted in the wake of the South's loss in the Civil War to maintain the status quo of white dominance in business
aftbit 3y ago
Vagrancy is not a particularly American crime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagrancy_Act_1824 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagrancy_Act_1824

DennisP 3y ago

A real estate license mostly teaches what you need to know about the laws around real estate transactions. It's pretty easy to get. Take the courses, pass the test, and you're in, there's no restricted access. You can set up your own brokerage and everything. But if you want your brokerage to have access to the MLS system, you have to join the Realtor organization. That's where the monopolistic behavior creeps in.

philips 3y ago
Except in Oregon you also have to have a minimum number of transactions per year or have a “senior broker” sign off on all your deals (for a price).
judge2020 3y ago
Most states require some years of experience before you can become an independent broker, in Florida it's 2 years of active work / 5 years in the system.
poulsbohemian 3y ago
Your location may be different, but what you are describing is not universal or even common in my experience working in multiple states. Yes, it is absolutely true that there should be a higher barrier to entry and even after "first renewal" (which is normally a second round of education), there isn't enough training before we let new agents loose into the world. That said - in every state I'm aware of, you work under a licensed broker who has additional licensing, training, and legal responsibility. Until you've reached that level of licensing it is not possible to set up your own brokerage. I've seen a work around where a non-licensed business owner paid someone to be their broker, but that regardless there has to be someone with the right licensing running the business. Also - whether MLS members must also be Realtors is a rule of the MLS and not a universal requirement. The NAR, nor MLSs, do not set commissions. In fact, much of the MLS rule changes in recent years that I've observed have been about making sure non-Realtor licensees have market access. It's right there in our paperwork that I show clients where we ask permission so that the seller knows who will be entering their home.

jjoonathan 3y ago

We should always have several competing licensing bodies. 1 licensing body: never considers the cost of gatekeeping, only the self-benefit. 2 licensing bodies: they are forced to weigh the cost of gatekeeping against the self-benefit, but you might get a race to the bottom. 3 licensing bodies: they are forced to weigh the cost of gatekeeping against the self-benefit, and if they race to the bottom too hard we can decertify one and retain competition until we can bud off a replacement.