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Geocoder.ca sued by Canada Post for their open database of postal codes
- kennywinker 15y agoI came across this while researching postal code data. I was first shocked to learn that this data set wasn't freely available from Canada Post ($5,000/year to access it), then pleased to find geocoder.ca's data set, and then pissed to learn they were being sued for it. So far there has been absolutely no media attention on this.
- canadiancreed 15y agoWhich sadly isnt' surprising. The combination of it being something that would only affect a small group of people (basically anyone in the IT industry building location-aware applications), and the media's ADD-like ability to concentrate on issues will keep it from ever seeing the light of day. I don't know what this government has against the tech industry in this country, but it must be some serious loathing with all the BS coming down the pipes
- kennywinker 15y agoThis goes back a long way. Amazing amounts of GIS data for the U.S. was available from tonnes of vendors sliced and diced in all sorts of interesting way on a CD-ROMs for < $100 way back in 1996. Canada, not so much. $3,000-15,000 for similar data. Because StatsCan and other organizations were selling it to big corporations who could pay that price tag... the result of that policy? Google maps could never have started in Canada.
- vidarh 15y agoIt's not too bad these days, though. I'm involved with a Candadian company doing GIS, and finding free layers getting easier. E.g. http://www.geogratis.ca http://www.geogratis.ca has a massive amount of freely available data for Canada. There are some ridiculous bits, though, such as being unable to get the Alberta Township grid, which is a necessity for a lot of property related stuff, without paying.
- canadiancreed 15y agoWhich is a great micro example of why startups have an uphill battle here as opposed to other jurisdictions. Sadly I dont' see that changing at all, barring a radical house cleaning.
- wmil 15y agoI think it goes back to a cultural problem with government. They don't acknowledge hobby research as legitimate or useful. So they release data to universities and charge everyone else an obscene amount. This kills a lot of start up ideas.
- earlyriser 15y agoI have emailed a journalist, I hope this will be helpful.
- nknight 15y agoI don't even understand how you found it, I can't seem to navigate to the announcement from their front page. If they make it impossible to find, it's quite understandable nobody knows about it.
- Aethaeryn 15y agoIt's not easy to find, but I've managed to work out what seems to be the shortest route. Step 1: Start at http://geocoder.ca/ http://geocoder.ca/ Step 2: Click "Free Data" -> http://geocoder.ca/?freedata=1 http://geocoder.ca/?freedata=1 Step 3: Click "You haven't made it until you get sued" -> http://geocoder.ca/?sued=1 http://geocoder.ca/?sued=1 There seems to be no mention of "sued" in the source of the front page.
- dmix 15y agoFor those curious, the US government releases geocoded zip codes openly: http://www.census.gov/tiger/tms/gazetteer/zips.txt http://www.census.gov/tiger/tms/gazetteer/zips.txt
- adatta02 15y agoDo you know how accurate that is? Every time I've seen census zip code data it comes with a big disclaimer that its only accurate as of the last census. The USPS changes zip codes at will.
- enf 15y agoTIGER is the Census geo data set. This is "zip code tabulation areas," not strict zip codes. The Census does update its maps more frequently than every 10 years though.
- cmelbye 15y agoMy zip code isn't in there, and neither is one from a nearby city.
- guan 15y agoThey are not very accurate if you are trying to map addresses to zip codes, for example. The data is compiled based on Census tracts. For each census tract, it tells you the most common zip code in that tract.
- maratd 15y agoThank you very much for the link! Didn't know about that one. I have always used: http://www.zip-codes.com/ http://www.zip-codes.com/ They do charge a nominal fee, but the data quality is excellent and they have monthly updates.
- skeletonjelly 15y agoLikewise in Australia. http://auspost.com.au/products-and-services/download-postcode-data.html http://auspost.com.au/products-and-services/download-postcod...
- motti_s 15y agoThings are changing. Technology is cheaper, internet is prevalent and small organizations disrupt the ways of the dinosaurs. We've seen that with newspapers, we are seeing that with Hollywood and we'll soon see it in education. The dinosaurs are big and powerful, but we all know what happens to them eventually. Sooner or later technology wins. Always. Having said that I hope Geocoder gets help with PR. I'm no PR expert but the fact that this post is not on their front page is the first bad sign. And the media, which always loves a David & Goliath story, apparently hasn't covered this; that's another bad sign. Swaying public opinion to your side is the way to win this, not litigation. If Geocoder lets Canada Post drag them to court they've already lost. As a Canadian I'm one of the owners of Canada Post and I hope I lose.
- tyrelb 15y agoCanada Post is pretty stupid on this one. Even if you type a postal code into Google Maps you get a result. I could imagine how old and stupid the gov't official is who filed that claim. Canada's a broke country, and the latest government budget has cut a tonne of government jobs, slashed R&D credits, etc.
- abrichr 15y agoCanada's a broke country On what basis do you make that claim?
- forkandwait 15y agoI think the (ignorant) right wing in the States assumes that Canada has its early 1990s fiscal problems because it is has lots of successful social programs that would considered leftist down here. Idiots.
- maratd 15y agoBased on the level of detail mentioned in the OP, it's pretty clear the author is Canadian.
- Karunamon 15y agoSo what are the Canadian copyright laws like? I was under the impression that you can't copyright facts.
- canadiancreed 15y agoDepends on how you interpret it. You are correct in that you can't coyright facts, but I'm sure the lawyers that Canada Post has hired will argue that since Canada Post created/authored the postal codes, it has ownership of that data and therefore can be copyrighted. The rest is just a combo of spin and waiting for the sued parties to be bled dry. If a country that is more capitalist and copyright mad then we are has no issue providing postal data, that our crown corporation has their panties in a twist is a cruel joke. Just adds another reason why I'd never use Canada Post for anything anyways.
- bengl 15y agoThe other question is whether the postal code data falls under Crown Copyright (http://publications.gc.ca/site/eng/ccl/aboutCrownCopyright.html http://publications.gc.ca/site/eng/ccl/aboutCrownCopyright.h...). There all all kinds of restrictions and freedoms that come along with that. Of course, it might not be the case that Canada Post data is under Crown Copyright, since it's a Crown corporation and not a government department. IANAL.
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- randomdata 15y agoIf that is the case, wouldn't sharing your postal address be considered a derivative work? I have made no agreements with Canada Post to distribute my address, the right has only been assumed on my part. It could turn out to be a dangerous liability for all Canadians if it holds up.
- jcoder 15y agoThe State of Oregon went through a similar situation in 2008. Justia.com was mirroring the Oregon Revised Statutes, and was served a cease & desist—not because the State claimed copyright over the laws themselves, but rather over the metadata such as indices, tables, line numbers, etc. In the end, the State agreed not to assert copyright over the laws (though that does not equal an admission that they do not have copyright). More: https://public.resource.org/oregon.gov/index.html#trail https://public.resource.org/oregon.gov/index.html#trail
- pagekalisedown 15y agoHow can this data not be public domain?
- Joakal 15y agoIf you think that's bad, government laws are copyrighted in some parts of the world. Yes, you're a pirate if you try to share government laws.
- zem 15y agoincluding the usa: http://boingboing.net/2012/03/19/liberating-americas-secret.html http://boingboing.net/2012/03/19/liberating-americas-secret....
- hub_ 15y agoCanada law is weird. They have "Crown copyright". As for Canada Post, they are required to make money, and are not required to not exploit publicly funded dataset like the postal code database. This is called monopoly.
- frankus 15y agoI keep that particular quirk (along with their appointed senate) in my back pocket for whenever I need to name an area in which US law is more democratic/liberal than Canadian law :)
- rmc 15y agoCanada law is weird. They have "Crown copyright" I don't know about Canada, but the UK has 'crown copyright', and it's essentially the same as regular copyright, but the copyright is owned by the government. Places without a crown still have governments that have copyright. There some weird things, The King James Bible, the Book of Common Prayer, and the Peter Pan stories are under perpetual unending copyright. (Well Peter Pan will go public domain when the Great Ormond Street Children's Hospital ceases to exist)
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- skylan_q 15y agoI wouldn't worry about this getting anywhere. And if it does, I'm pretty sure the current gov't will smack Canada Post silly as retaliation.
- sycr 15y agoThey charge $500 for their data set. An easy way to combat this litigation would be to release the set gratis. Let the information flow.
- hub_ 15y ago5000$. Missing a zero.
- shinratdr 15y agoHe was referring to Geocoder. Geocoder sells their database for commercial use for $500.
- sycr 15y agoAs has been pointed out, I was referring to Geocoder's rates. I had the same confusion though. The request for donations certainly makes it seem like they are beneficent, but they are themselves selling the data. Not that that's legally or morally wrong (certainly not) - it's just a different position to be in.
- kennywinker 15y agoThey are only selling it if you want it without the ODb licence. I.e. you don't want to share-alike or attribute. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.
- kennywinker 15y agoa) Geocoder only charges for their data if you need it without the restrictions of the ODbLicence it's released under (basically attribution, share-alike). b) giving it away for free would not actually change anything legally. You can still get sued for copyright infringement even if you don't make any money on it.
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- afhof 15y agoIs there a link to the C&D or the court case details? I'm sure we can agree that helping people with zipcode data for free is laudable, but reading only one half of an argument isn't a good way to make decisions.
- ktizo 15y agoThis has strong echoes of the Astrolabe/Olson case, only is possibly even more nutty, somewhat better funded and a hell of a lot less excusable on the part of Canada Post. Legally it should be a walk for Geocoder, but I wouldn't like to make a wager on it.
- elchief 15y agoi guess somebody should put their database on bittorrent pretty quick my cousin works in PR for canada post. i emailed him to get the scoop. will post here when i do.
- meiji 15y agoThe issue with these postcode databases is that once they're released to a customer there's no real way of tracking if they get reused elsewhere. The contract I had with the Royal Mail in the UK mandated destruction of all media and backups of the database once the contract period expired. As we know, getting individual tables out of old DB backups isn't necessarily easy but that's what the terms state. It's easy to see why they do that because it's not really a complicated "product" and very easy to duplicate. That said, Canada Post should have tried to talk before litigation as all this does is make a crown organisation look like a bully in front of Canadians and now the world.
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- AliAdams 15y agoI'm likely speaking from the wrong culture, but the phrasing "You haven't made it until you get sued" on their home page sounds like Geocoder are attempting to spin a bit of a complement for themselves rather than going for the image of a David being bullied by a Goliath. I hope I'm write in suggesting that such a phrasing may not the best way of getting support.
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]