9 ms·

Anyone remember "DOS ain't done until Lotus won't run"? Now it's "Chrome ain't done until uBlock won't run". If it's not Manifest V3 that makes the Internet sa

by gary_0 3y ago

Anyone remember "DOS ain't done until Lotus won't run"? Now it's "Chrome ain't done until uBlock won't run". If it's not Manifest V3 that makes the Internet safe for advertising, it'll be a "browser integrity" token or some other kind of DRM-by-another-name. Google has made it clear with YouTube that the arms race is on, and sooner or later they'll go nuclear.

ronsor 3y ago
And they'll kill all of us, including themselves, in the process.
- clouddrover 3y ago
  No. Use Firefox and you will survive. uBlock Origin works best in Firefox: https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/uBlock-Origin-works-best-on-Firefox https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/uBlock-Origin-works-b...
  - anonymousab 3y ago
    The nuclear option will eventually be to just ban Google accounts for using any ad blocking. The question is whether that atmosphere would simply cause people to quit Google services vs. turn off Adblock altogether to continue using them. I would wager that the latter would be far more likely and common for the average person.
    - mcronce 3y ago
      I agree with your intuition on the latter being more likely. And Google won't care about the minority of power users they lose. They've been outwardly hostile toward power users with Android for years.
      - shiroiuma 3y ago
        Apple is even worse...
        I_Am_Nous 3y ago
        True, but getting an iPhone to tinker with is kind of like buying a book to rearrange the words into your own story. They crafted a beautiful walled garden for you, and the walls are a feature - which is definitely not for everyone. That said, I have fond memories of installing Linux on my iPod Mini so I understand the joy of making devices do things they were never intended to do.
    - xur17 3y ago
      > The nuclear option will eventually be to just ban Google accounts for using any ad blocking. Or they just keep making it harder and harder to use alternative browsers that support ad blocking.
    - Tommstein 3y ago
      > The nuclear option will eventually be to just ban Google accounts for using any ad blocking. The collateral damage from that would probably lead to the mother and father of all class-action lawsuits, literal Acts of Congress, and EU fines that Google would have to get a second job in order to pay if they don't try to break them up outright.
    - maxloh 3y ago
      IMO both will happen. People are going to continue using other Google services, but quit YouTube.
    - dun44 3y ago
      That’s one reason why we need a YouTube archive that’s outside of Google’s control.
  - Analemma_ 3y ago
    Firefox only survives because Google props it up. I don’t think Google can stop completely without incurring antitrust wrath, but they could probably start attaching strings and conditions to the funding.
    - clouddrover 3y ago
      So you're saying the more users Firefox has, the stronger Mozilla's bargaining position. You make a good case to use Firefox.
      - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
        Alternatively, the more users Firefox has, the more incentive Google has to twist Mozilla's arm. I doubt that ultimately defeats forks that are maintained by volunteers (https://librewolf.net/ https://librewolf.net/), and I don't want to discourage Firefox adoption, but it's not quite so cut-and-dry as "use Firefox". There will likely come a time that it's "use this community fork of old-Firefox-before-it-got-Googled". Still not a case against Firefox; just pointing out there's more to the picture.
        leotravis10 3y ago
        In other words, if Firefox becomes popular enough, there's a chance that Google will deliver a nail to Mozilla's coffin in pulling their search deal and other funding which is the backbone of their business in a financial level. Another example is that Mozilla has a LOT to lose if the DOJ wins in the US v. Google antitrust trial just for those deals.
        toyg 3y ago
        In the past, when FF was stronger, they took search deals with other engines (yahoo, bing). If their numbers go back up, it could be a viable strategy again. Maybe I'm old, but doing the right thing on the internet has always been harder than just going with the flow. Using Linux in 2000 was very hard, using Firefox in 2001 was no walk in the park - but one gotta do what one gotta do, if one has some principles.
  - saurik 3y ago
    > If it's not Manifest V3 that makes the Internet safe for advertising, it'll be a "browser integrity" token or some other kind of DRM-by-another-name. So, no: Firefox will NOT save you.
    - clouddrover 3y ago
      Not on its own it won't. It needs more people using it. It needs to support extensions like uBlock Origin, which it does. Chrome is built to serve Google's interests, which is exactly as you'd expect. Use Firefox for a web which better balances the competing interests of corporations and end users.
      - gary_0 3y ago
        There are already plenty of banking sites and such that will turn you away for not having a standard-issue Chrome user agent header. Also, crank your browser's privacy settings too high, and any website with twitchy Cloudflare settings will give you the sisyphean "I'm not a bot" check box until you give up and go away (or come back with a Chrome that's hungry for cookies). So no, on our present course, Firefox will not save us. And even if every HN reader used it, that wouldn't even come close to pushing its usage share out of the single digits.
        clouddrover 3y ago
        > There are already plenty of banking sites and such that will turn you away for not having a standard-issue Chrome user agent header. Don't use that bank. > Also, crank your browser's privacy settings too high, and any website with twitchy Cloudflare settings will give you the sisyphean "I'm not a bot" check box Don't use that website. It's certainly true that you have no agency or self respect if you embrace a defeatist and submissive outlook. So don't do that.
        shiroiuma 3y ago
        >There are already plenty of banking sites and such that will turn you away for not having a standard-issue Chrome user agent header There are countless banks out there. I have bank accounts with several different institutions in two different countries and they all work fine with Firefox + uBO. If yours doesn't, why are you supporting them? >Also, crank your browser's privacy settings too high, and any website with twitchy Cloudflare settings will give you the sisyphean "I'm not a bot" check box until you give up and go away (or come back with a Chrome that's hungry for cookies). I haven't seen this. If a website is too much of a PITA to use, I just won't use it, and I suggest you do the same.
  - narinxas 3y ago
    firefox and being able to compile it on you machine may do the trick for a little while but policy decisions aren't like technical ones.... principles are at play at every layer above the strictly-technical discussion
    - clouddrover 3y ago
      Right. So make the principled choice and use Firefox now.
  - 1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago
    But today Firefox, i.e., Mozilla, is wholly dependent, financially, on Google. One could argue that Google can "kill" Mozilla easier than it can "kill" uBlock.
- narinxas 3y ago
  to them who find this comment exagerated (hyperbollic?) there are things that through symbolism come to signify life-or-death scenario across different contexts (i.e. life or dead of what-exactly?) these "ad-tech" wars aren't about technology as much as they (really) are about (the future?) of user freedom. freedom is the key word (symbol) which links this difficult real world contest into the nuclear leagues
- PoignardAzur 3y ago
  I really don't like advertising, but it's a non-lethal nuisance.
krackers 3y ago
> This lets extensions modify network requests without intercepting them and viewing their content, thus providing more privacy. Doesn't uBlock currently block youtube ads by blocking requests based on XHR content? This will kill that.
- moffkalast 3y ago
  For each 10 ft wall youtube builds uBlock will eventually find a 11 ft ladder.
  - krackers 3y ago
    Actually looking a bit more at how the xhr filtering is implemented, uBO seems to do it not at the webRequest level but instead by shimming the javascript fetch() method itself. So maybe this approach would still work in a MV3 world, I don't know what restrictions are imposed on content scripts.
    - maxloh 3y ago
      How does the actual code look like?
- mortallywounded 3y ago
  No. People that care will simply stop using Chrome.
  - archerx 3y ago
    I already have firefox installed on all my machines slowly transitioning over. Chromes new UI updates are really pushing me over to firefox faster. Now when I set up nee computers for friends I install firefox for them, when they ask me why not chrome I tell them chrome is old news and not to be trusted which they happily accept and use firefox. Slowly the tide is turning.
    - lta 3y ago
pjmlp 3y ago
Everyone that has helped Chrome (alongside its Electron shell) take over the Web can now thank Google.
- chii 3y ago
  Fork chrome, or switch to firefox.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Fork Chrome is usually easier said than done, as proven by the "success" of most FOSS forks, besides many key features aren't even in Chromium. I am mostly a Firefox user, at least until it stays around.
    - maxloh 3y ago
      Brave and Vivaldi is quite success IMO.
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        Yet another two re-inforcing Chrome dominance on the Web.
      - firecall 3y ago
        Brave is ~0.05% market share. It’s probably successful in that it’s a well known project within the tech community. And 0.05% of the global browser market is a lot of users and probably a decent business. (Are they profitable?) But outside of HN type audiences, no one has heard of it.
        maxloh 3y ago
        It seems that they became profitable, weirdly enough, by having users opt-in to their own ads... in their ad-blocking browser [0]. [0]: https://brave.com/2021-recap/ https://brave.com/2021-recap/
  - 3y ago

by gary_0 3y ago

ronsor 3y ago

And they'll kill all of us, including themselves, in the process.

clouddrover 3y ago
No. Use Firefox and you will survive. uBlock Origin works best in Firefox: https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/uBlock-Origin-works-best-on-Firefox https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/uBlock-Origin-works-b...
- anonymousab 3y ago
  The nuclear option will eventually be to just ban Google accounts for using any ad blocking. The question is whether that atmosphere would simply cause people to quit Google services vs. turn off Adblock altogether to continue using them. I would wager that the latter would be far more likely and common for the average person.
  - mcronce 3y ago
    I agree with your intuition on the latter being more likely. And Google won't care about the minority of power users they lose. They've been outwardly hostile toward power users with Android for years.
    - shiroiuma 3y ago
      Apple is even worse...
      - I_Am_Nous 3y ago
        True, but getting an iPhone to tinker with is kind of like buying a book to rearrange the words into your own story. They crafted a beautiful walled garden for you, and the walls are a feature - which is definitely not for everyone. That said, I have fond memories of installing Linux on my iPod Mini so I understand the joy of making devices do things they were never intended to do.
  - xur17 3y ago
    > The nuclear option will eventually be to just ban Google accounts for using any ad blocking. Or they just keep making it harder and harder to use alternative browsers that support ad blocking.
  - Tommstein 3y ago
    > The nuclear option will eventually be to just ban Google accounts for using any ad blocking. The collateral damage from that would probably lead to the mother and father of all class-action lawsuits, literal Acts of Congress, and EU fines that Google would have to get a second job in order to pay if they don't try to break them up outright.
  - maxloh 3y ago
    IMO both will happen. People are going to continue using other Google services, but quit YouTube.
  - dun44 3y ago
    That’s one reason why we need a YouTube archive that’s outside of Google’s control.
- Analemma_ 3y ago
  Firefox only survives because Google props it up. I don’t think Google can stop completely without incurring antitrust wrath, but they could probably start attaching strings and conditions to the funding.
  - clouddrover 3y ago
    So you're saying the more users Firefox has, the stronger Mozilla's bargaining position. You make a good case to use Firefox.
    - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
      Alternatively, the more users Firefox has, the more incentive Google has to twist Mozilla's arm. I doubt that ultimately defeats forks that are maintained by volunteers (https://librewolf.net/ https://librewolf.net/), and I don't want to discourage Firefox adoption, but it's not quite so cut-and-dry as "use Firefox". There will likely come a time that it's "use this community fork of old-Firefox-before-it-got-Googled". Still not a case against Firefox; just pointing out there's more to the picture.
      - leotravis10 3y ago
        In other words, if Firefox becomes popular enough, there's a chance that Google will deliver a nail to Mozilla's coffin in pulling their search deal and other funding which is the backbone of their business in a financial level. Another example is that Mozilla has a LOT to lose if the DOJ wins in the US v. Google antitrust trial just for those deals.
      - toyg 3y ago
        In the past, when FF was stronger, they took search deals with other engines (yahoo, bing). If their numbers go back up, it could be a viable strategy again. Maybe I'm old, but doing the right thing on the internet has always been harder than just going with the flow. Using Linux in 2000 was very hard, using Firefox in 2001 was no walk in the park - but one gotta do what one gotta do, if one has some principles.
- saurik 3y ago
  > If it's not Manifest V3 that makes the Internet safe for advertising, it'll be a "browser integrity" token or some other kind of DRM-by-another-name. So, no: Firefox will NOT save you.
  - clouddrover 3y ago
    Not on its own it won't. It needs more people using it. It needs to support extensions like uBlock Origin, which it does. Chrome is built to serve Google's interests, which is exactly as you'd expect. Use Firefox for a web which better balances the competing interests of corporations and end users.
    - gary_0 3y ago
      There are already plenty of banking sites and such that will turn you away for not having a standard-issue Chrome user agent header. Also, crank your browser's privacy settings too high, and any website with twitchy Cloudflare settings will give you the sisyphean "I'm not a bot" check box until you give up and go away (or come back with a Chrome that's hungry for cookies). So no, on our present course, Firefox will not save us. And even if every HN reader used it, that wouldn't even come close to pushing its usage share out of the single digits.
      - clouddrover 3y ago
        > There are already plenty of banking sites and such that will turn you away for not having a standard-issue Chrome user agent header. Don't use that bank. > Also, crank your browser's privacy settings too high, and any website with twitchy Cloudflare settings will give you the sisyphean "I'm not a bot" check box Don't use that website. It's certainly true that you have no agency or self respect if you embrace a defeatist and submissive outlook. So don't do that.
      - shiroiuma 3y ago
        >There are already plenty of banking sites and such that will turn you away for not having a standard-issue Chrome user agent header There are countless banks out there. I have bank accounts with several different institutions in two different countries and they all work fine with Firefox + uBO. If yours doesn't, why are you supporting them? >Also, crank your browser's privacy settings too high, and any website with twitchy Cloudflare settings will give you the sisyphean "I'm not a bot" check box until you give up and go away (or come back with a Chrome that's hungry for cookies). I haven't seen this. If a website is too much of a PITA to use, I just won't use it, and I suggest you do the same.
- narinxas 3y ago
  firefox and being able to compile it on you machine may do the trick for a little while but policy decisions aren't like technical ones.... principles are at play at every layer above the strictly-technical discussion
  - clouddrover 3y ago
    Right. So make the principled choice and use Firefox now.
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago
  But today Firefox, i.e., Mozilla, is wholly dependent, financially, on Google. One could argue that Google can "kill" Mozilla easier than it can "kill" uBlock.
narinxas 3y ago
to them who find this comment exagerated (hyperbollic?) there are things that through symbolism come to signify life-or-death scenario across different contexts (i.e. life or dead of what-exactly?) these "ad-tech" wars aren't about technology as much as they (really) are about (the future?) of user freedom. freedom is the key word (symbol) which links this difficult real world contest into the nuclear leagues
PoignardAzur 3y ago
I really don't like advertising, but it's a non-lethal nuisance.

krackers 3y ago

> This lets extensions modify network requests without intercepting them and viewing their content, thus providing more privacy. Doesn't uBlock currently block youtube ads by blocking requests based on XHR content? This will kill that.

moffkalast 3y ago
For each 10 ft wall youtube builds uBlock will eventually find a 11 ft ladder.
- krackers 3y ago
  Actually looking a bit more at how the xhr filtering is implemented, uBO seems to do it not at the webRequest level but instead by shimming the javascript fetch() method itself. So maybe this approach would still work in a MV3 world, I don't know what restrictions are imposed on content scripts.
  - maxloh 3y ago
    How does the actual code look like?
mortallywounded 3y ago
No. People that care will simply stop using Chrome.
- archerx 3y ago
  I already have firefox installed on all my machines slowly transitioning over. Chromes new UI updates are really pushing me over to firefox faster. Now when I set up nee computers for friends I install firefox for them, when they ask me why not chrome I tell them chrome is old news and not to be trusted which they happily accept and use firefox. Slowly the tide is turning.
  - lta 3y ago

pjmlp 3y ago

Everyone that has helped Chrome (alongside its Electron shell) take over the Web can now thank Google.

chii 3y ago
Fork chrome, or switch to firefox.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Fork Chrome is usually easier said than done, as proven by the "success" of most FOSS forks, besides many key features aren't even in Chromium. I am mostly a Firefox user, at least until it stays around.
  - maxloh 3y ago
    Brave and Vivaldi is quite success IMO.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      Yet another two re-inforcing Chrome dominance on the Web.
    - firecall 3y ago
      Brave is ~0.05% market share. It’s probably successful in that it’s a well known project within the tech community. And 0.05% of the global browser market is a lot of users and probably a decent business. (Are they profitable?) But outside of HN type audiences, no one has heard of it.
      - maxloh 3y ago
        It seems that they became profitable, weirdly enough, by having users opt-in to their own ads... in their ad-blocking browser [0]. [0]: https://brave.com/2021-recap/ https://brave.com/2021-recap/
- 3y ago