4 ms·

As a indie game developer, this could plausibly enable me to add decent sounding soundtrack to my games. I couldn't afford to pay a proper artist, and my musica

As a indie game developer, this could plausibly enable me to add decent sounding soundtrack to my games. I couldn't afford to pay a proper artist, and my musical skills are... Limited.. It _is_ just a tool, a new instrument essentially, one that is easier to play than most. People being angry that there is now a new instrument that is much easier to play than the one they spent years to learn come across as entitled brats to me. This will enable me to express myself in a way I couldn't before, how is that not about human expression? It's a accessibility thing as well. Expressing oneself through music has always been nearly impossible to the tone-deaf among us. Now that may change, and you want to stop that because it might maybe potentially affect how much money you can earn from playing music? Glory to Google for enabling the musically impaired to express themselves through music!

barryvan 3y ago
Have you considered something like https://www.indiegamemusic.com/ https://www.indiegamemusic.com/, where a lot of artists have their music available free or super cheaply?
- amarant 3y ago
  I have, and it kinda works, but I usually have a pretty good idea of what I want the theme to sound like, and I'm never able to find something that even resembles my vision. That leaves me with 2 options: hire an orchestra and a choir, along with a composer to make the sound I want, which would cost me a lot more than my games ever sell for, or pick a sound that's never quite, or usually even close to, what I had in mind. With this tool, I'm hoping even someone as musically untalented as me could take the music that's playing in my head, and get it(or something very similar to it) playing on some speakers. It probably won't win me any musical awards, I don't expect this to to magically take me from zero to Vivaldi, but if I can make a tune that sounds like what I imagined, it'll be a win for me. I'll add here that I really for the life of me cannot see the harm in that, even though you didn't really imply there would be, but others in this thread have been screaming it pretty loudly, so it appears to be a concern among fellow hn'ers
  - vunderba 3y ago
    If you have music that's playing in your head, genuinely playing in your head, as in you can actually hear the physical melody then you should be able to trivially whistle it. So in that respect, this tool which aims to combine pitch detection with instrumentation synthesization would be a pretty big net win for you.
    - amarant 3y ago
      Exactly why I'm so excited about it! And so confused by the apparent outrage on display here for it. How is it morally wrong for me to be able to do that? I'm trying to understand it but so far all I can see is gatekeeping saying that my music isn't music if I used AI to create it. Judging by the comment paraphrasing pastor Niemöller I'm apparently a Nazi sympathiser for wanting to use this tool. What in the world is up with that?
vouaobrasil 3y ago
There is NO SUCH THING as "just a tool". All tools have societal effects that are inevitable in different ways because we operate on basal instincts most of the time, or at least our capitalistic society has made us fairly deterministic. It's not the same as a new instrument that is easier to play, because with an instrument, you have to determine entirely what comes out of it. With this "tool", you only determine part of the output, a skeleton, and a machine determines the basic musicality. I 100% do not buy the accessibility argument. Of course, everyone plays that card. But the overall gross societal effects of AI are not worth it, even if it does help some people. Imagine a new nuclear technology that cures all cancer, but simultaneously allows anyone to create an atomic bomb in their backyard. Would you think this worth it? We have to consider the costs and benefits, not just the benefits like most technophiles think. You may create something with this tool for your game, but I certainly won't buy your game if AI has been used in its creation.
helboi4 3y ago
You are exactly why this is a problem. By creating demand for this soulless music we will be inundated by it everywhere. Also all small musicians will basically have to give up because no-one will even bother to save up to pay them. Absolutely trash mindset.
- amarant 3y ago
  I already can't pay them, so nothing changes in that point. I don't know why it makes you so angry that I want the best tools imaginable to make music, for my games and otherwise? I promise you won't be inundated by the music I create, and no-one will force you to listen to it. The mindset that you have the right to dictate what tools I can and cannot use to express myself via music is downright dystopian and extremely autocratic. If me creating some tunes for my own benefit in my basement scares you, I think you might need to revise your world view, or all that anxiety is gonna have a detrimental effect on your health sooner or later.
  - helboi4 3y ago
    I understand that you can't afford it. I have been a poor hobbyist before. I've been so poor I had to try and do all my projects on an overheating piece of hot garbage government issued laptop and I felt very hard done by for being someone with expensive hobbies that only rich people could afford to actually excel at. But there are free music options. AI is an existential threat to our very right to expression as human being and you should not vote with your money for it to wipe out creatives as a fellow creative. There are also struggling amateur music producers out there who are attempting to get good and make a break. They don't deserve to be drowned forever by a machine. As humans, the fundamental way we derive meaning from life is creation. The purpose of automation has always been to allow for humans to have more space to be creative, as this is really what we excel at and enjoy. If we insist on replacing our creative functions with machines, we will make ourselves obsolete, apart from the few CEOs who own the massive servers that nobody else can afford to own and closed source super-powerful AI systems. Even if you think these ghoul-like assholes would actually care to help the destitute masses whose jobs have rapidly become obsolete on an unprecedented scale that our economy cannot handle, humans require meaning and goals to survive. If we have to all just be kept alive by server owners because our passions are made irrelevant by mass producing robots, humans will die out just from the psychological stress. This is a real thing, one of the top indicators of long lifespan is older people retaining passions, goals and some level of work. This is of course all worst case scenario stuff I'm talking about here. But I struggle to see an argument for how allowing AI to take over every aspect of our society would not lead to plenty of horrible consequences. Your convenience is not worth it, I'm sorry.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
FLT8 3y ago
First they came for the artists. And I did not speak out because I was not an artist. Then they came for the actors. And I did not speak out because I was not an actor. Then they came for the musicians. And I did not speak out because I was not a musician. ... Then they came for the Indie Game Devs. And there was nobody left to speak for them.
- helboi4 3y ago
  fr it's like this guy doesn't get that if art music and coding are all taken over by AI his whole job/hobby will be redundant
allturtles 3y ago
So what do you think will happen when the indie-game-making AI is released?
- amarant 3y ago
  Oh that would be so cool! I could finally give all my game ideas a shot, even the more weird/experimental ones! As it is now I have to consider expected payout divided by expected effort, and a lot of ideas are just non starters because they're simply too big to finish for me. Financially, well I'd expect people as an aggregate would keep spending about the same amount of money, so I don't think the proverbial pie would get any smaller, though it might change who gets a piece and how large that piece is. Guess what, such is life! Even if we, for the sake of argument, imagine that the existence of such an AI is 100% guaranteed to render me personally unable to make any money whatsoever from making games, that's a price I would be willing to pay! I'd have to work with something less fun but I'd keep making games in my spare time just for fun anyway. It's not like making a living from our passions is some god given right, It's a privilege! And if that privilege is the cost for making my passion more accessible to everyone, that's a price I'd pay in a heartbeat. I can't wait to make reality out of all my ideas, and I can't wait to see what others are going to make with it either! It's already one of my bigger regrets that I don't contribute more to open source resources that would make game development easier for others, I just can't find enough time and energy for it. From the consumers perspective, I expect there'd be a lot more to choose from. I imagine the quality of indie games would rise immensely. Heck gamers could even just use the AI to make a custom game tailored for their own tastes from home, how sweet would that be? Might that make the pie smaller for pro Devs? Sure, it might, but who cares! It also might not! Who knows? The one thing that is guaranteed from such an AI is that awesomeness goes up. I want it!
  - helboi4 3y ago
    So what's the job that you'd be hoping to get to sustain your hobbies that is immune from AI takeover. Please tell me? I am a creative type that became a commercial SE to actually fund my lifestyle. I don't expect to just make money from creative hobbies just because I want to, so I have gone for a job that is in high demand. But AI will eventually learn to code well enough. Then there will be no demand for software engineering, one of the few job markets that even has this level of demand and high employment. So what's the next avenue for us when that job becomes obsolete.

barryvan 3y ago

Have you considered something like https://www.indiegamemusic.com/ https://www.indiegamemusic.com/, where a lot of artists have their music available free or super cheaply?

amarant 3y ago
I have, and it kinda works, but I usually have a pretty good idea of what I want the theme to sound like, and I'm never able to find something that even resembles my vision. That leaves me with 2 options: hire an orchestra and a choir, along with a composer to make the sound I want, which would cost me a lot more than my games ever sell for, or pick a sound that's never quite, or usually even close to, what I had in mind. With this tool, I'm hoping even someone as musically untalented as me could take the music that's playing in my head, and get it(or something very similar to it) playing on some speakers. It probably won't win me any musical awards, I don't expect this to to magically take me from zero to Vivaldi, but if I can make a tune that sounds like what I imagined, it'll be a win for me. I'll add here that I really for the life of me cannot see the harm in that, even though you didn't really imply there would be, but others in this thread have been screaming it pretty loudly, so it appears to be a concern among fellow hn'ers
- vunderba 3y ago
  If you have music that's playing in your head, genuinely playing in your head, as in you can actually hear the physical melody then you should be able to trivially whistle it. So in that respect, this tool which aims to combine pitch detection with instrumentation synthesization would be a pretty big net win for you.
  - amarant 3y ago
    Exactly why I'm so excited about it! And so confused by the apparent outrage on display here for it. How is it morally wrong for me to be able to do that? I'm trying to understand it but so far all I can see is gatekeeping saying that my music isn't music if I used AI to create it. Judging by the comment paraphrasing pastor Niemöller I'm apparently a Nazi sympathiser for wanting to use this tool. What in the world is up with that?

vouaobrasil 3y ago

There is NO SUCH THING as "just a tool". All tools have societal effects that are inevitable in different ways because we operate on basal instincts most of the time, or at least our capitalistic society has made us fairly deterministic. It's not the same as a new instrument that is easier to play, because with an instrument, you have to determine entirely what comes out of it. With this "tool", you only determine part of the output, a skeleton, and a machine determines the basic musicality. I 100% do not buy the accessibility argument. Of course, everyone plays that card. But the overall gross societal effects of AI are not worth it, even if it does help some people. Imagine a new nuclear technology that cures all cancer, but simultaneously allows anyone to create an atomic bomb in their backyard. Would you think this worth it? We have to consider the costs and benefits, not just the benefits like most technophiles think. You may create something with this tool for your game, but I certainly won't buy your game if AI has been used in its creation.

helboi4 3y ago

You are exactly why this is a problem. By creating demand for this soulless music we will be inundated by it everywhere. Also all small musicians will basically have to give up because no-one will even bother to save up to pay them. Absolutely trash mindset.

amarant 3y ago
I already can't pay them, so nothing changes in that point. I don't know why it makes you so angry that I want the best tools imaginable to make music, for my games and otherwise? I promise you won't be inundated by the music I create, and no-one will force you to listen to it. The mindset that you have the right to dictate what tools I can and cannot use to express myself via music is downright dystopian and extremely autocratic. If me creating some tunes for my own benefit in my basement scares you, I think you might need to revise your world view, or all that anxiety is gonna have a detrimental effect on your health sooner or later.
- helboi4 3y ago
  I understand that you can't afford it. I have been a poor hobbyist before. I've been so poor I had to try and do all my projects on an overheating piece of hot garbage government issued laptop and I felt very hard done by for being someone with expensive hobbies that only rich people could afford to actually excel at. But there are free music options. AI is an existential threat to our very right to expression as human being and you should not vote with your money for it to wipe out creatives as a fellow creative. There are also struggling amateur music producers out there who are attempting to get good and make a break. They don't deserve to be drowned forever by a machine. As humans, the fundamental way we derive meaning from life is creation. The purpose of automation has always been to allow for humans to have more space to be creative, as this is really what we excel at and enjoy. If we insist on replacing our creative functions with machines, we will make ourselves obsolete, apart from the few CEOs who own the massive servers that nobody else can afford to own and closed source super-powerful AI systems. Even if you think these ghoul-like assholes would actually care to help the destitute masses whose jobs have rapidly become obsolete on an unprecedented scale that our economy cannot handle, humans require meaning and goals to survive. If we have to all just be kept alive by server owners because our passions are made irrelevant by mass producing robots, humans will die out just from the psychological stress. This is a real thing, one of the top indicators of long lifespan is older people retaining passions, goals and some level of work. This is of course all worst case scenario stuff I'm talking about here. But I struggle to see an argument for how allowing AI to take over every aspect of our society would not lead to plenty of horrible consequences. Your convenience is not worth it, I'm sorry.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

FLT8 3y ago

First they came for the artists. And I did not speak out because I was not an artist. Then they came for the actors. And I did not speak out because I was not an actor. Then they came for the musicians. And I did not speak out because I was not a musician. ... Then they came for the Indie Game Devs. And there was nobody left to speak for them.

helboi4 3y ago
fr it's like this guy doesn't get that if art music and coding are all taken over by AI his whole job/hobby will be redundant

allturtles 3y ago

So what do you think will happen when the indie-game-making AI is released?

amarant 3y ago
Oh that would be so cool! I could finally give all my game ideas a shot, even the more weird/experimental ones! As it is now I have to consider expected payout divided by expected effort, and a lot of ideas are just non starters because they're simply too big to finish for me. Financially, well I'd expect people as an aggregate would keep spending about the same amount of money, so I don't think the proverbial pie would get any smaller, though it might change who gets a piece and how large that piece is. Guess what, such is life! Even if we, for the sake of argument, imagine that the existence of such an AI is 100% guaranteed to render me personally unable to make any money whatsoever from making games, that's a price I would be willing to pay! I'd have to work with something less fun but I'd keep making games in my spare time just for fun anyway. It's not like making a living from our passions is some god given right, It's a privilege! And if that privilege is the cost for making my passion more accessible to everyone, that's a price I'd pay in a heartbeat. I can't wait to make reality out of all my ideas, and I can't wait to see what others are going to make with it either! It's already one of my bigger regrets that I don't contribute more to open source resources that would make game development easier for others, I just can't find enough time and energy for it. From the consumers perspective, I expect there'd be a lot more to choose from. I imagine the quality of indie games would rise immensely. Heck gamers could even just use the AI to make a custom game tailored for their own tastes from home, how sweet would that be? Might that make the pie smaller for pro Devs? Sure, it might, but who cares! It also might not! Who knows? The one thing that is guaranteed from such an AI is that awesomeness goes up. I want it!
- helboi4 3y ago
  So what's the job that you'd be hoping to get to sustain your hobbies that is immune from AI takeover. Please tell me? I am a creative type that became a commercial SE to actually fund my lifestyle. I don't expect to just make money from creative hobbies just because I want to, so I have gone for a job that is in high demand. But AI will eventually learn to code well enough. Then there will be no demand for software engineering, one of the few job markets that even has this level of demand and high employment. So what's the next avenue for us when that job becomes obsolete.