6 ms·

Way back in 2008 or so, shortly after the "ribbon" arrived in the MS Word interface, I was teaching a CS class that had a unit on UI, so we spent a bunch of tim

Way back in 2008 or so, shortly after the "ribbon" arrived in the MS Word interface, I was teaching a CS class that had a unit on UI, so we spent a bunch of time deconstructing it and comparing it to the menu-based interfaces we were all (then) still used to. I was careful to point out that unfamiliarity with the new interface wasn't necessarily the same as it being bad, especially if with a little additional training and practice we could become more efficient and/or it aided in discoverability for newer users. Although I didn't use the same words as the OP I was unironically suggesting that MS must have done a bunch of research to show that these interfaces would be an improvement in usability. Joke's on me! Fifteen years later and I still can't fucking find anything I want to do in the ribbon. I use various MS products at least a couple times a week (though day-to-day is more Libreoffice when it can't just be vim) and despite regular use I still find that I routinely have to google "how do I X in Microsoft Word/Excel/etc" for values of X that are very standard tasks that I am deeply confident I would be able to find on my own in a menu. And once I do find out how to do something, even if it's something I'm going to be doing a bunch, there's no indication of a shortcut or keyboard equivalent that I could train myself on, to become an actual power user of the interface. It's all completely maddening.

inamberclad 3y ago
I think this kind of user abuse is intentional. If people put the time and energy, and emotional effort into understanding a piece of software, they're less likely to jump ship.
- brutusborn 3y ago
  Wouldn’t that suggest it is accidental? Making it harder to understand a piece of software seems to cause people to look for easier to understand alternatives.
  - shiroiuma 3y ago
    If the software has a small marketshare and is struggling to get new users, then this would be true. When the software is already hugely dominant, the same dynamic does not apply. Trying to lock-in customers when they're not customers yet is a bad idea, but when they're already your customers, it makes business sense.
  - masswerk 3y ago
    I think, MS Office products provide superb usability for those who make and/or influence these decisions: those who are installing the software. The enduser isn't really in that loop.
usrbinbash 3y ago
> Fifteen years later and I still can't fucking find anything Of course people can't. That ribbon was a shite idea 15 years ago, and still is. A textual menu is, by sheer necessity, hierarchical. Hierarchy imposes order. Text menus also aren't subject to the ever-shifting ideas of design-guru's idea of what X means in the form of a picture, making it, also by necessity, descriptive. Descriptiveness and order mean discoverability.
- quickthrower2 3y ago
  Visual Studio (not VSCode) is a case study in how to sprawl across different menus and require menu hunts to find what you want.
  - paulryanrogers 3y ago
    VS is an expert tool. Not a word processor for the masses.
    - Fatnino 3y ago
      Not really an excuse to be scatterbrained like that. For either program.
      - paulryanrogers 3y ago
        Professional tools can optimize for efficiency at the cost to discoverability and new users. After all, they'll be used for many hours every week by largely the same cohort of expert users.
  - hakfoo 3y ago
    I've had to work with VS for the first time in my career recently. I love how they don't have a scrollable tab bar (like the Jetbrains IDEs or even bloody Notepad++), but you can have it spawn row after row of tabs and crowd out the code itself.
- benhurmarcel 3y ago
ozim 3y ago
That was fun to read as I did not expect second paragraph to go that way. Then there is use of curse word in the right place as it does not jump on me but sneaks up in the sentence to give a panache to it.
2d8a875f-39a2-4 3y ago
I've come to the realisation that to "use the ribbon" you're just meant to search for stuff. Typing "insert symbol" in the Word ribbon is much faster than trying to find the button. And ok sure, I admit that's a valid paradigm. When there are a lot of options, you need to support a search function. Witness the Start Menu, or the options dialog in IDEA. Option search is vital once you reach a critical mass of options.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > I've come to the realisation that to "use the ribbon" you're just meant to search for stuff. I think the idea is that you are supposed to customize the location of things you use frequently that aren’t already in the most prominent locations and search for things you use infrequently.
baq 3y ago
Resonates. In vscode I just cmd-shift-p for almost anything. macOS also has a menu bar search feature in the help menu. Used it a couple times on apple’s own numbers. Worked quite well.
- paulmooreparks 3y ago
  Microsoft Office features a search box at the top of each application where one may search for a feature (for example, "tables") and a drop-down selection is presented as the user types.
- eviks 3y ago
  Office has a similar search bar (though it should move to the center of the screen instead of being in the corner), and it's great, but the huge benefit of ribbons is progressive key chords with visual feedback that, when memorized, provide much faster, and guaranteed access to a given function (search bar can have multiple matches, so you can't be certain that typing a word and hitting enter will result in something) (mac's search menu bar is worse as it's not typo-resistant, doesn't allow arrow up/down right away when the text box is focused, and includes various "Help" junk instead of showing nothing if you can't find anything)
benhurmarcel 3y ago
I've always kinda liked the ribbon, since it came out in 2007. Traditionally, you get menus and the most important features doubled as rows of small icons. Icons lack text so if you can't find the one you want you need to hover them one by one; also they are not organized into clear named categories, and they all have the same importance. Menus are complete and organized, but not visual (it's just text, although in some programs they add small icons), and all features are given the same importance also. The ribbon is exactly like a menu (complete and well organized by named categories), but in addition it's visual (you get large icons added to the text), and buttons are sized differently depending on their importance. Also it's collapsible. The only drawback I can find is that if you know exactly what you want, it takes 2 clicks with the ribbon vs 1 click on an icon.
- alasarmas 3y ago
  If you hold down <Alt> (I tend to think of it as Meta due to Emacs-induced brain damage), all of the targets on the ribbon should get associated keyboard characters, so you can quickly drill through the layers of the ribbon. After you’ve seen the shortcut, you can use it again without having to wait for any screen transitions. This used to work back in Office 2013, and I assume it still does…
  - fsckboy 3y ago
    >hold down <Alt> (I tend to think of it as Meta due to Emacs-induced brain damage) when i hear ALT i reach to press ESC due to TECO-induced brain damage not even joking at all. i'll finish the way you finish a teco command; ALT ALT https://texteditors.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?TECO https://texteditors.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?TECO $$
_Algernon_ 3y ago
>I was careful to point out that unfamiliarity with the new interface wasn't necessarily the same as it being bad, especially if with a little additional training and practice we could become more efficient and/or it aided in discoverability for newer users. I mean I'd argue it would be bad even if this was true. A new design comes at the cost of all the accumulated muscle memory and skills in navigating the old interface. A miniscule increase in discoverability for new users is irrelevant because users spend a lot more time at the higher end of the learning curve when it comes to professional software. There is a reason why we don't create a new interface to control cars every 10 years.
torginus 3y ago
Imo the ribbon was a good answer to a bad question. The question being "How do we make sure users can find all those features we put in successive new releases"? They came up with a solution that it easier for users to find new functionality, at the cost of degrading existing workflows. And the irony of the whole ribbon debacle is that they already came up with the correct solution (as proven by history) in Office XP - just put in a search bar for features.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > The question being "How do we make sure users can find all those features we put in successive new releases"? I don't agree it was a good answer to that question. The ribbon makes things harder to find, not easier.
eviks 3y ago
> there's no indication of a shortcut or keyboard equivalent What do you mean? Besides the Ctrl+X-like shortcut in the tooltip of a ribbon button, once you start some Alt-H prefix to activate Home ribbon menu every button shows a AL AC AR AJ... tooltip that allows you to further drill down to Align paragraph Left which you can eventually remember as a sequence Alt-HAL So it has both great key nav concpets - shortcus and key chords (the main issue here is that it's hard to change those)
JohnFen 3y ago
> Joke's on me! Fifteen years later and I still can't fucking find anything I want to do in the ribbon. Yep. Despite having to use it mostly daily for the entire time, the ribbon is still a major impediment to actually accomplishing stuff. It incorporates almost every usability sin in the book. I consider it one of the worst UI elements to have been invented.

inamberclad 3y ago

I think this kind of user abuse is intentional. If people put the time and energy, and emotional effort into understanding a piece of software, they're less likely to jump ship.

brutusborn 3y ago
Wouldn’t that suggest it is accidental? Making it harder to understand a piece of software seems to cause people to look for easier to understand alternatives.
- shiroiuma 3y ago
  If the software has a small marketshare and is struggling to get new users, then this would be true. When the software is already hugely dominant, the same dynamic does not apply. Trying to lock-in customers when they're not customers yet is a bad idea, but when they're already your customers, it makes business sense.
- masswerk 3y ago
  I think, MS Office products provide superb usability for those who make and/or influence these decisions: those who are installing the software. The enduser isn't really in that loop.

usrbinbash 3y ago

> Fifteen years later and I still can't fucking find anything Of course people can't. That ribbon was a shite idea 15 years ago, and still is. A textual menu is, by sheer necessity, hierarchical. Hierarchy imposes order. Text menus also aren't subject to the ever-shifting ideas of design-guru's idea of what X means in the form of a picture, making it, also by necessity, descriptive. Descriptiveness and order mean discoverability.

quickthrower2 3y ago
Visual Studio (not VSCode) is a case study in how to sprawl across different menus and require menu hunts to find what you want.
- paulryanrogers 3y ago
  VS is an expert tool. Not a word processor for the masses.
  - Fatnino 3y ago
    Not really an excuse to be scatterbrained like that. For either program.
    - paulryanrogers 3y ago
      Professional tools can optimize for efficiency at the cost to discoverability and new users. After all, they'll be used for many hours every week by largely the same cohort of expert users.
- hakfoo 3y ago
  I've had to work with VS for the first time in my career recently. I love how they don't have a scrollable tab bar (like the Jetbrains IDEs or even bloody Notepad++), but you can have it spawn row after row of tabs and crowd out the code itself.
benhurmarcel 3y ago

ozim 3y ago

That was fun to read as I did not expect second paragraph to go that way. Then there is use of curse word in the right place as it does not jump on me but sneaks up in the sentence to give a panache to it.

2d8a875f-39a2-4 3y ago

I've come to the realisation that to "use the ribbon" you're just meant to search for stuff. Typing "insert symbol" in the Word ribbon is much faster than trying to find the button. And ok sure, I admit that's a valid paradigm. When there are a lot of options, you need to support a search function. Witness the Start Menu, or the options dialog in IDEA. Option search is vital once you reach a critical mass of options.

dragonwriter 3y ago
> I've come to the realisation that to "use the ribbon" you're just meant to search for stuff. I think the idea is that you are supposed to customize the location of things you use frequently that aren’t already in the most prominent locations and search for things you use infrequently.

baq 3y ago

Resonates. In vscode I just cmd-shift-p for almost anything. macOS also has a menu bar search feature in the help menu. Used it a couple times on apple’s own numbers. Worked quite well.

paulmooreparks 3y ago
Microsoft Office features a search box at the top of each application where one may search for a feature (for example, "tables") and a drop-down selection is presented as the user types.
eviks 3y ago
Office has a similar search bar (though it should move to the center of the screen instead of being in the corner), and it's great, but the huge benefit of ribbons is progressive key chords with visual feedback that, when memorized, provide much faster, and guaranteed access to a given function (search bar can have multiple matches, so you can't be certain that typing a word and hitting enter will result in something) (mac's search menu bar is worse as it's not typo-resistant, doesn't allow arrow up/down right away when the text box is focused, and includes various "Help" junk instead of showing nothing if you can't find anything)

benhurmarcel 3y ago

I've always kinda liked the ribbon, since it came out in 2007. Traditionally, you get menus and the most important features doubled as rows of small icons. Icons lack text so if you can't find the one you want you need to hover them one by one; also they are not organized into clear named categories, and they all have the same importance. Menus are complete and organized, but not visual (it's just text, although in some programs they add small icons), and all features are given the same importance also. The ribbon is exactly like a menu (complete and well organized by named categories), but in addition it's visual (you get large icons added to the text), and buttons are sized differently depending on their importance. Also it's collapsible. The only drawback I can find is that if you know exactly what you want, it takes 2 clicks with the ribbon vs 1 click on an icon.

alasarmas 3y ago
If you hold down <Alt> (I tend to think of it as Meta due to Emacs-induced brain damage), all of the targets on the ribbon should get associated keyboard characters, so you can quickly drill through the layers of the ribbon. After you’ve seen the shortcut, you can use it again without having to wait for any screen transitions. This used to work back in Office 2013, and I assume it still does…
- fsckboy 3y ago
  >hold down <Alt> (I tend to think of it as Meta due to Emacs-induced brain damage) when i hear ALT i reach to press ESC due to TECO-induced brain damage not even joking at all. i'll finish the way you finish a teco command; ALT ALT https://texteditors.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?TECO https://texteditors.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?TECO $$

_Algernon_ 3y ago

>I was careful to point out that unfamiliarity with the new interface wasn't necessarily the same as it being bad, especially if with a little additional training and practice we could become more efficient and/or it aided in discoverability for newer users. I mean I'd argue it would be bad even if this was true. A new design comes at the cost of all the accumulated muscle memory and skills in navigating the old interface. A miniscule increase in discoverability for new users is irrelevant because users spend a lot more time at the higher end of the learning curve when it comes to professional software. There is a reason why we don't create a new interface to control cars every 10 years.

torginus 3y ago

Imo the ribbon was a good answer to a bad question. The question being "How do we make sure users can find all those features we put in successive new releases"? They came up with a solution that it easier for users to find new functionality, at the cost of degrading existing workflows. And the irony of the whole ribbon debacle is that they already came up with the correct solution (as proven by history) in Office XP - just put in a search bar for features.

JohnFen 3y ago
> The question being "How do we make sure users can find all those features we put in successive new releases"? I don't agree it was a good answer to that question. The ribbon makes things harder to find, not easier.

eviks 3y ago

> there's no indication of a shortcut or keyboard equivalent What do you mean? Besides the Ctrl+X-like shortcut in the tooltip of a ribbon button, once you start some Alt-H prefix to activate Home ribbon menu every button shows a AL AC AR AJ... tooltip that allows you to further drill down to Align paragraph Left which you can eventually remember as a sequence Alt-HAL So it has both great key nav concpets - shortcus and key chords (the main issue here is that it's hard to change those)

JohnFen 3y ago

> Joke's on me! Fifteen years later and I still can't fucking find anything I want to do in the ribbon. Yep. Despite having to use it mostly daily for the entire time, the ribbon is still a major impediment to actually accomplishing stuff. It incorporates almost every usability sin in the book. I consider it one of the worst UI elements to have been invented.