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And in the over 100 Tesla chargers I have visited, I think maybe 1 was broken and not labeled. Good news is Tesla standard is coming to most car brands. Bad n

• outworlder 3y ago
  Relying on a single company seems like bad news to me. Imagine if your car could only refuel at Chevron stations. I get it that other charging networks also have the NACS connector. But if the argument is that they are unrealiable and people shouldn't bother, then Tesla will be the only game in town.
  • hn_version_0023 3y ago
    Seriously, especially with Tesla! I'm imagining a scenario where this becomes the standard and then Elon decides to charge everyone $2.99 per-use or some such nonsense. That's entirely in-character for Mr. Musk.
    • tokai 3y ago
      Or just block charging in a whole country because he got owned on twitter.
      • BlueTemplar 3y ago
        And then what, try to electrocute the law enforcement somehow when they come in to unblock it ?
    • yardie 3y ago
      EVGo already charges a $3.99 session fee. I made the mistake of topping up a EV rental without reading the fine print. BTW, Tesla charges $12.99/mo for access to the SuperCharger network for non-Tesla brands. The $/kW rate is pretty competitive and just .05-.10 higher than the residential depending on time of day.
  • bryanlarsen 3y ago
    Yes, that's why the NACS announcements are good for us Tesla owners. A lot of Tesla owners are worried about cars from other manufactures filling up Tesla charging stations. That's probably a valid concern, but I'm happy about the reduced reliance on Tesla.
    • natch 3y ago
      Teslas aren’t limited to charging at superchargers. Saying there is a “reliance on Tesla” makes it sound like they are. That’s going to confuse or mislead some people, maybe not your intent, but it will. We already live in a world where Teslas can charge at any charger and (recent tentative changes aside) other cars can only charge at unreliable expensive non-Tesla chargers. It’s good that this is changing but the only way it’s good for Tesla owners is that money is going to be raining down to further build out the supercharger network.
      • clouddrover 3y ago
        > We already live in a world where ... other cars can only charge at unreliable expensive non-Tesla chargers. No, that's North America. Europe is different: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y33AArvMUQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y33AArvMUQ Although Tesla's V4 chargers still suck for 800 volt cars which is a shame. Tesla must try harder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEJ2KtzMeh8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEJ2KtzMeh8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJgThJtCR2g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJgThJtCR2g
        • natch 3y ago
          Thanks, good reminder of something large I overlooked.
  • taylodl 3y ago
    This gets at the core as to why I've not (yet) bought an EV - it's absolutely insane that my car purchase dictates the people I have to associate with for refueling. As you point out - I would never buy a car having the stipulation I could only refuel at Chevron stations. I'll stick with my dino juice so long as Tesla is the only viable option available for recharging. I'd think about getting an EV for a local commuter car where I can always charge at home, but they're still too expensive for that - though that should change as the used EV market becomes more developed and mature.
    • Qwertious 3y ago
      The funny thing is that electrical charging isn't fully standardized, but somehow hydrocarbons are.
      • mensetmanusman 3y ago
        This should be true, new technology is less standardized than ancient tech.
      • dpkirchner 3y ago
        They probably wouldn't be standardized if they didn't have to be. IMO this is a regulatory failure.
      • djbusby 3y ago
        Gas and Oil didn't start off as standardized (nothing does) - got there over time. I'm sure EV will get there - eventually. Needs a standards group like ASTM maybe.
        • Schiendelman 3y ago
          We’re there already - everyone has adopted NACS. Interestingly, the standards group was the problem…
      • galangalalgol 3y ago
        They aren't really, it is just that modern engines are incredibly tolerant of what you put in them. Some survey found that the different octane tanks get mis-filled a large portion of the time with other octanes or higher ethanol ratings. Even within an octane rating what is in there varies a lot. The changes needed to make a four stroke work on propane is very small. And an old diesel engine will run on almost any liquid that will burn but not evaporate at stp. The cars will get smarter and be able to do better with different voltages at some point.
  • ajross 3y ago
    This seems backwards. You're demanding that people use alternatives in the market because of competition. But competition is what we have, and the market is choosing winners and losers. So... you're demanding we use the losers' products. So they can compete? Which they... aren't?
• voski 3y ago
  What do you mean the Tesla standard is coming to most brands? I was under the impression that Tesla is introducing new stations that have CCS chargers. Either with multiple cables or an adapter. You start the station using the Tesla mobile app. It’s in beta available in certain locations
  • zamfi 3y ago
    In Europe, yes. In, fact, European Teslas all come with CCS connectors now. In the USA, though, nearly every major vehicle manufacturer has announced a transition to NACS, the Tesla connector standard.
    • bryanlarsen 3y ago
      To be more precise, NACS uses the Tesla physical connector but the CCS signalling protocol. In consequence: 1: Cars with CCS Type 1 connectors can use a dumb physical adapter to connect to a NACS charger. 2: Older Tesla's (prior to ~2020 depending on model) need a $400 retrofit to be able to charge at non-Tesla NACS chargers. (The $400 retrofit includes a CCS Type 1 adapter, so it might eventually be cheaper without it).
      • ajross 3y ago
        To clarify #2: the retrofit is the newer controller board that speaks CCS. This is the same thing they've been offering as a "CCS upgrade". It's otherwise unrelated to the NACS switchover, though obviously those are CCS-protocol devices and thus work with it.
  • fjskk333a 3y ago
    You're like 1 year behind the news. Last year Tesla was adding CCS chargers. They have like 5 now. This year, Ford and others promised to use Tesla plugs on their vehicles and Tesla promised to open their network to other manufactures. "Old" CCS vehicles will use CCS-Tesla adapters.
  • andrewmunsell 3y ago
    It's actually both, at least in the US. Tesla has the "Magic Dock", which is the built-in CCS adapter that unlocks when you use the app with a non-Tesla car. This is rolling out in a few places. The other thing is that "NACS" (North American Charging Standard, the same physical plug that Teslas use but with the CCS protocol, with some minor backwards compatible changes for optional higher voltages) is being adopted by almost every EV brand, beginning ~2025. Further, these same brands have committed to providing or selling NACS-CCS adapters to existing cars so they can use Tesla chargers, even without buying a new model of car.
• myself248 3y ago
  Allowing other brands to charge at Tesla stations will probably have some impact. Changing to the Tesla connector on other stations will most emphatically not.
• mayama 3y ago
  The issue is maintaining already installed chargers. Lot of chargers are either physically broken or rated for low charging rate because something inside is broken. And no one fixing it in months. Changing the connector won't fix the issue when chargers are not fixed for months on end.
  • nathanaldensr 3y ago
    People, especially techie types here on HN, tend to simply forget or not know to begin with just how many service technicians and laborers are necessary to keep all this tech running. Just because you can imagine it does not mean it's possible, folks.
    • parineum 3y ago
      The problem really is the companies. EA essentially rushed their product out the door knowingly with substandard (both in quality and actual standardization) that's led to their issues. They are simply not built to last and their bespokeness leads them to be difficult to repair. This isn't a case of oversimplifying, especially considering we can look across the street at a company who is doing exactly what we're asking for.
      • tw04 3y ago
        You do realize EA isn’t making their own chargers, and sources their chargers from multiple vendors, right? https://media.electrifyamerica.com/en-us/releases/21 https://media.electrifyamerica.com/en-us/releases/21 > Reston, VA (April 17, 2018) – Electrify America announced today it has selected key charging equipment suppliers – ABB, BTC Power, Efacec and Signet – to jointly deploy its new ultra-fast electric vehicle (EV) charging systems throughout the United States.
        • parineum 3y ago
          Yes, that's _exactly_ the issue. When they need to service a station, they need just the right parts. That's also from 2018. There a lot of chargers built before then. I read an article not too long ago where the new CEO was explaining that the reliability issue is, essentially, they rushed to get the first generations of chargers out so fast that they had to source parts from everywhere and they weren't all well tested and there are a lot of different types. The result is that each station is basically bespoke and they have to find just the right replacement parts to fix a broken station. The result is that you have to send a technician out to find the broken part and then wait to get a replacement instead of the technician having replacement parts on hand (because there are too many that it might be). That's why they are ripping out old stations and replacing them with new ones.
• snapetom 3y ago
  It's not the standard that made it reliable for you, it's the company that made/maintained the chargers. The vast majority of these companies are shitty, fly-by-night companies that can't scale up to maintain their network.
  • parineum 3y ago
    And the company that maintains those chargers uses that standard. We don't want the standard, we want the chargers that work.
  • tw04 3y ago
    > The vast majority of these companies are shitty, fly-by-night companies that can't scale up to maintain their network. They really aren’t, it just turns out it’s a hard problem. Electrify America was founded by vw as part of the diesel gate settlement. ChargePoint has been around for almost a decade. Then there are a bunch of OEMs producing chargers for the likes of gas station chains and automobile mfgs. About the only place you’ll find fly-by-night nobody’s is in the home charging space and even those are few and far between. It takes a LOT of capital to build a charging network.
    • hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
      > > The vast majority of these companies are shitty, fly-by-night companies that can't scale up to maintain their network. > They really aren’t, it just turns out it’s a hard problem. Electrify America was founded by vw as part of the diesel gate settlement. Except your sentence there exactly explains why Electrify America is probably the network people love to hate on the most (myself included given the number of times I've visited non-functioning EA chargers), while the Supercharger network is leaps and bounds more reliable. Electrify America was essentially forced into existence as punishment to VW because of dieselgate. Which means it's not surprising that the folks in charge of EA had very little motivation to provide a stellar experience. Contrast this with Tesla, who sees the Supercharger network as an integral part of their business of selling cars. As the owner of a non-Tesla EV who loves my car but is very wary of 3rd party charging networks, you really have to hand it to Tesla for their work in building out the Supercharger network. They had the foresight to realize how critically important a good charging network would be, so much so that they are now able to dictate the "North America Charging Standard" (which given the history of how that name came about takes a ton of chutzpah, but that's a discussion for another post...) for the rest of the automakers - basically all the other EV makers have announced transitions to NACS. So, yes, it may be debatable to call the other charging networks "fly-by-night" companies, but I'll definitely agree with the "shitty" aspect. There are just tons and tons and tons of non-functioning chargers, and the comparison with the reliability of Superchargers is extremely stark.
• biomcgary 3y ago
  Network effects drive Tesla sales. In this case, the network of chargers. I was a Tesla passenger for a short trip from Seattle to Vancouver and the charging at the Tesla "station" was quick and easy. Other stations were a roll of the dice and highly inconvenient.