4 ms·

The EU is weird. When companies spy on their customers/users it's a 4 million Euro fine, when member states want to track the phones of its citizens it's a hum

The EU is weird. When companies spy on their customers/users it's a 4 million Euro fine, when member states want to track the phones of its citizens it's a human rights violation, but when the EU it self wants something similar or worse it's a question of safety.

Lolaccount 3y ago
2 out of 3 with room for improvement. I'll take it compared to some places I've been.
mrtksn 3y ago
EU is not something different than the member states, it's %100 made of (elected) or (appointed by the elected) from the member states. So the appointed by the elected will consult with the elected and come up(or already came up) with a proposal and the elected will vote on it. This website is made by some interest groups(both from Italy) that want to pressure the elected to reject a certain proposal. Nothing weird really, just politics of a democracy in action. If you agree with the position of these interest groups you can support them, if you don't care you can ignore them or if you disagree you can start a counter campaign.
- wouldbecouldbe 3y ago
  I wish it was so simple, there are a bunch of different bodies; only the parlement is directly voted in. Especially the EU commmision the most powerful part are picked by the 27 leaders. Consequence is lot of deal making and influence by main countries France & Germany; and no direct responsiblity to citizens. It's not all bad, but also not all great.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    And those 27 leaders come into power how? Winning the lottery or finding a coucher in their breakfast cereals?
    - mrtksn 3y ago
      They are the heads of state of each country. Elected directly, no lottery involved.
      - AlecSchueler 3y ago
        Heads of the governments, not the heads of state.
        mrtksn 3y ago
        right
    - nosajio 3y ago
      The EU holds elections in each country which barely anybody knows about. They're not heads of state. Members of EU parliament are called MEPs, and are totally separate from heads of state elected in national elections.
      - hef19898 3y ago
        Well, sarcasm works only so-so on the internet. And that people dont vote during EU elections, which are heavily advertized at least in Germany, is hardly the EUs fault.
  - mrtksn 3y ago
    The EU commissioners are the appointed ones by the EU parliament(elected directly by the citizens) and the 27 leaders(head of state of each country, directly elected) elect the EU president. The direct responsibility to the citizens concerns the elected ones. The commission is powerful but their power is restrained by the elected ones and the elected ones can replace the appointed ones if they are not happy with it. Anyway, direct democracy exists only in few places, like in Switzerland. EU and most of the democratic world runs on representative democracies, that is you elect people who you trust that will work the best for your interests and send them in a fancy building to vote on stuff and hoping for the best.
    - junofan 3y ago
      > you elect people who you trust that will work the best for your interests The EU explicitly works for collective interest, not individual interest.
      - mrtksn 3y ago
        I find it useless to dive into a discussion on whose interests are the collective interests. Let's hope that we will get rid of those who's interests are not aligned with the collective interests.
    - raxxorraxor 3y ago
      How much the EU has a democratic deficit is a personal question for each constituent. In my case its democracy is very far removed from accountability and representation, so I believe the deficits are quite pronounced. It is not really honest to say you can put layers upon layers of indirect representation and the democratic process would not suffer. Legitimacy is lost on the way.
  - somewhereoutth 3y ago
    The Commission is decidedly not the most powerful part! It is simply the secretariat for the EU, what in the UK is called the Civil Service. It is involved with policy formulation and implementation sure, but only at the behest of the other bodies. The most powerful part is the Council, where each member government is represented and is the mechanism by which member states pool their sovereignty. Nothing happens without the (often required to be unanimous) agreement of the Council. Recent case in point: an EU Commissioner stated that aid to Gaza would be cut in the aftermath of the Hamas attacks - this was quickly backtracked when a member state objected.
- junofan 3y ago
  A governing body chartered for the collective interest of its members is indeed something different than a group of states working for their own interests. Just because I vote for my representative doesn’t mean my representative is no different from me.
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  > EU is not something different than the member states This is clearly false. The member states exist independently of the EU. If you get rid of the EU, all the states still exist. Which means the EU is something more than “just the member states”. The EU is obviously a governing body on top of and between the member states. There is an EU president, parliament, and other offices for crying out loud. There is no way you yourself can believe what you’re claiming.
  - mrtksn 3y ago
    If 5 people come together and form a music band, is that band just that 5 people or something external? That's what EU is, 27 states who send people to do stuff that concern all the member states in Brussels. You can load as much meaning as you like on top of it, but there's no external party. The president of the EU commission(there's no president of EU) is elected by the heads of the governments(the EU member state governments, elected by the people of that state) and approved by the EU parliament(directly elected by EU member state citizens). So, If one of the band members is elected by the other band members to be the lead singer, is that band member something external?
    - nonethewiser 3y ago
      If 5 people come together is it a band? No, thus a band is something beyond 5 people.
wouldbecouldbe 3y ago
EU countries are allowed to spy just fine. I remember we were all freaking out by Snowden's revelations about phone tapping in the USA. Dutch Journalist were describing how scandalous it was, while at the same time the Dutch intelligence been doing that for a long time without needing a warrant, were and no one really cared about it.
- ath92 3y ago
  There’s a difference between your own democratically elected government spying on its citizens and some other government you have no control over doing the same. Not saying that it’s good that the Dutch government was spying on its citizens, but it’s worse when it’s a foreign super power.
  - mrtksn 3y ago
    EU is not an unrelated 3rd party, its partly the democratically elected(the EU parliament) and partly the Dutch government(the Dutch head of state) and people appointed by those.
    - ginko 3y ago
      The foreign super power ath92 was referring to was the US, not the EU.
  - raxxorraxor 3y ago
    I disagree, it is the exact opposite in my opinion. Compromising data about myself isn't relevant to China (I am not in China), but perhaps relevant to my current or coming government. The exception is if I am an official, a public persona or a dissident of the country doing the spying. But for everything else the impact of your own government spying on you is much more relevant. Of course situations were friendly states spy on each other notwithstanding.
arlort 3y ago
> when the EU it self The EU doesn't have security services. What you're referring to is what (primarily) the member states want and they try to get it at the EU level so they won't be in violation of EU laws In any case this specific request is about adding additional safeguards in a new act, not about stopping an ongoing practice or blocking a regressive proposal like the chatcontrol issue
hnbad 3y ago
What's weird about that other than the mistake of thinking "the EU itself" is a thing in this context? States are allowed to have armies, corporations are not. States can send people with guns after you and lock you away, corporations can not. Do you think that's weird too? States hold more power than corporations because corporations exist only because states allow them to. Now whether states are a good thing or not is another question of course.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

Lolaccount 3y ago

2 out of 3 with room for improvement. I'll take it compared to some places I've been.

mrtksn 3y ago

EU is not something different than the member states, it's %100 made of (elected) or (appointed by the elected) from the member states. So the appointed by the elected will consult with the elected and come up(or already came up) with a proposal and the elected will vote on it. This website is made by some interest groups(both from Italy) that want to pressure the elected to reject a certain proposal. Nothing weird really, just politics of a democracy in action. If you agree with the position of these interest groups you can support them, if you don't care you can ignore them or if you disagree you can start a counter campaign.

wouldbecouldbe 3y ago
I wish it was so simple, there are a bunch of different bodies; only the parlement is directly voted in. Especially the EU commmision the most powerful part are picked by the 27 leaders. Consequence is lot of deal making and influence by main countries France & Germany; and no direct responsiblity to citizens. It's not all bad, but also not all great.
- hef19898 3y ago
  And those 27 leaders come into power how? Winning the lottery or finding a coucher in their breakfast cereals?
  - mrtksn 3y ago
    They are the heads of state of each country. Elected directly, no lottery involved.
    - AlecSchueler 3y ago
      Heads of the governments, not the heads of state.
      - mrtksn 3y ago
        right
  - nosajio 3y ago
    The EU holds elections in each country which barely anybody knows about. They're not heads of state. Members of EU parliament are called MEPs, and are totally separate from heads of state elected in national elections.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Well, sarcasm works only so-so on the internet. And that people dont vote during EU elections, which are heavily advertized at least in Germany, is hardly the EUs fault.
- mrtksn 3y ago
  The EU commissioners are the appointed ones by the EU parliament(elected directly by the citizens) and the 27 leaders(head of state of each country, directly elected) elect the EU president. The direct responsibility to the citizens concerns the elected ones. The commission is powerful but their power is restrained by the elected ones and the elected ones can replace the appointed ones if they are not happy with it. Anyway, direct democracy exists only in few places, like in Switzerland. EU and most of the democratic world runs on representative democracies, that is you elect people who you trust that will work the best for your interests and send them in a fancy building to vote on stuff and hoping for the best.
  - junofan 3y ago
    > you elect people who you trust that will work the best for your interests The EU explicitly works for collective interest, not individual interest.
    - mrtksn 3y ago
      I find it useless to dive into a discussion on whose interests are the collective interests. Let's hope that we will get rid of those who's interests are not aligned with the collective interests.
  - raxxorraxor 3y ago
    How much the EU has a democratic deficit is a personal question for each constituent. In my case its democracy is very far removed from accountability and representation, so I believe the deficits are quite pronounced. It is not really honest to say you can put layers upon layers of indirect representation and the democratic process would not suffer. Legitimacy is lost on the way.
- somewhereoutth 3y ago
  The Commission is decidedly not the most powerful part! It is simply the secretariat for the EU, what in the UK is called the Civil Service. It is involved with policy formulation and implementation sure, but only at the behest of the other bodies. The most powerful part is the Council, where each member government is represented and is the mechanism by which member states pool their sovereignty. Nothing happens without the (often required to be unanimous) agreement of the Council. Recent case in point: an EU Commissioner stated that aid to Gaza would be cut in the aftermath of the Hamas attacks - this was quickly backtracked when a member state objected.
junofan 3y ago
A governing body chartered for the collective interest of its members is indeed something different than a group of states working for their own interests. Just because I vote for my representative doesn’t mean my representative is no different from me.
nonethewiser 3y ago
> EU is not something different than the member states This is clearly false. The member states exist independently of the EU. If you get rid of the EU, all the states still exist. Which means the EU is something more than “just the member states”. The EU is obviously a governing body on top of and between the member states. There is an EU president, parliament, and other offices for crying out loud. There is no way you yourself can believe what you’re claiming.
- mrtksn 3y ago
  If 5 people come together and form a music band, is that band just that 5 people or something external? That's what EU is, 27 states who send people to do stuff that concern all the member states in Brussels. You can load as much meaning as you like on top of it, but there's no external party. The president of the EU commission(there's no president of EU) is elected by the heads of the governments(the EU member state governments, elected by the people of that state) and approved by the EU parliament(directly elected by EU member state citizens). So, If one of the band members is elected by the other band members to be the lead singer, is that band member something external?
  - nonethewiser 3y ago
    If 5 people come together is it a band? No, thus a band is something beyond 5 people.

wouldbecouldbe 3y ago

EU countries are allowed to spy just fine. I remember we were all freaking out by Snowden's revelations about phone tapping in the USA. Dutch Journalist were describing how scandalous it was, while at the same time the Dutch intelligence been doing that for a long time without needing a warrant, were and no one really cared about it.

ath92 3y ago
There’s a difference between your own democratically elected government spying on its citizens and some other government you have no control over doing the same. Not saying that it’s good that the Dutch government was spying on its citizens, but it’s worse when it’s a foreign super power.
- mrtksn 3y ago
  EU is not an unrelated 3rd party, its partly the democratically elected(the EU parliament) and partly the Dutch government(the Dutch head of state) and people appointed by those.
  - ginko 3y ago
    The foreign super power ath92 was referring to was the US, not the EU.
- raxxorraxor 3y ago
  I disagree, it is the exact opposite in my opinion. Compromising data about myself isn't relevant to China (I am not in China), but perhaps relevant to my current or coming government. The exception is if I am an official, a public persona or a dissident of the country doing the spying. But for everything else the impact of your own government spying on you is much more relevant. Of course situations were friendly states spy on each other notwithstanding.

arlort 3y ago

> when the EU it self The EU doesn't have security services. What you're referring to is what (primarily) the member states want and they try to get it at the EU level so they won't be in violation of EU laws In any case this specific request is about adding additional safeguards in a new act, not about stopping an ongoing practice or blocking a regressive proposal like the chatcontrol issue

hnbad 3y ago

What's weird about that other than the mistake of thinking "the EU itself" is a thing in this context? States are allowed to have armies, corporations are not. States can send people with guns after you and lock you away, corporations can not. Do you think that's weird too? States hold more power than corporations because corporations exist only because states allow them to. Now whether states are a good thing or not is another question of course.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]