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Why would a creature even evolve into a process this convoluted? It’s so complex that it becomes silly.

ithkuil 3y ago
One possible explaination (I heard of. Not sure how mainstream an explanation is) is that insect metamorphosis is the result of two species fusing together in a kind of chimera. One "piggybacking" on the other and gradually each phase specializing EDIT: An article that contains some more pointers (research papers etc) on the idea: https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2012/08/01/157718428/are-butterflies-two-different-animals-in-one-the-death-and-resurrection-theory https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2012/08/01/157718428/a...
andsoitis 3y ago
Relevant reading: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982219313156 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096098221...
jonhohle 3y ago
Monarchs go one step further in that there are 3-5 generations that have effectively distinct migratory and reproductive patterns. One generation migrates north from Mexico to the northern US, 1-3 continue north, and the final one flies back to effectively the same place in Mexico.
chongli 3y ago
The two main mobile forms are highly optimized for different tasks: the caterpillar for eating and storing energy, the butterfly for moving long distances and mating. It’s so elegant and really quite a marvel of evolution. The problem it solves is that the butterfly’s wings are so big they take a vast amount of material and energy to grow. If you imagine an alternate reality where butterflies hatch fully formed from tiny eggs and begin to fly around right away, you begin to see the problem: those winged creatures could never eat enough material to grow the huge wings of an adult butterfly. The caterpillar solves this problem neatly by shedding the wings and just focusing on eating in order to store as much energy as possible. If you think about it, the butterfly is really just an animal that copies the (spatial) lifecycle of wind-dispersed plants. The imago phase (adult butterfly) follows the mobile seeds of a dandelion or maple tree. The caterpillar in turn stays with the rooted plant and feasts on it for material and energy. Butterflies are themselves pollinators of plants which illustrates how valuable a role dispersal is.
- jareklupinski 3y ago
  i'm going to start calling the process of converting my prototype to beta "metamorphosis"
- peddling-brink 3y ago
  This makes me think of the description of evolution in Dragon’s Egg. Great book.
BuyMyBitcoins 3y ago
Going a step further, the question of how metamorphosis evolved is even more puzzling.
- simmerup 3y ago
  300 million years and a lot of failed branches
- XorNot 3y ago
  It's an extreme version of reproductive optimization: a lot of animals have a reproductive strategy of "bank resources, then mate and die". Even things with complex neural systems like octopuses (who despite their intelligence, have no parents because they die after protecting their eggs). So how you get here sort of makes sense in that context: if reproduction is more successful if you delay it to collect resources, then it also follows that discarding any biomass you don't need once you've got enough to ensure the reproduction happens quickly and successfully afterwards would lead to this sort of strategy in extremis. A "prototype" caterpillar doesn't need to be able to fly - it just needs to do something which makes it more mobile and slightly more successful (and well, getting away from where you're born and spreading out is a good way to ensure the gene line isn't killed off entirely by one lucky predator).
  - BuyMyBitcoins 3y ago
    I don’t want to sound like a creationist, but the process of metamorphosis itself seems so incredibly complicated that I struggle to imagine how the process could have evolved incrementally. Clearly, it did, so there must be an answer. It’s fascinating to ponder.
    - TerrifiedMouse 3y ago
      My guess is that it started simple. Early caterpillars probably didn't metamorph into something so drastically different. Even earlier ones probably barely had something that resembles metamorphosis.
mavhc 3y ago
Eighty percent of all animal species experience metamorphosis
- nerdponx 3y ago
  But is that because they're all bugs? Is metamorphosis basal or derived?

One possible explaination (I heard of. Not sure how mainstream an explanation is) is that insect metamorphosis is the result of two species fusing together in a kind of chimera. One "piggybacking" on the other and gradually each phase specializing EDIT: An article that contains some more pointers (research papers etc) on the idea: https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2012/08/01/157718428/are-butterflies-two-different-animals-in-one-the-death-and-resurrection-theory https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2012/08/01/157718428/a...

andsoitis 3y ago

Relevant reading: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982219313156 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096098221...

jonhohle 3y ago

Monarchs go one step further in that there are 3-5 generations that have effectively distinct migratory and reproductive patterns. One generation migrates north from Mexico to the northern US, 1-3 continue north, and the final one flies back to effectively the same place in Mexico.

chongli 3y ago

The two main mobile forms are highly optimized for different tasks: the caterpillar for eating and storing energy, the butterfly for moving long distances and mating. It’s so elegant and really quite a marvel of evolution. The problem it solves is that the butterfly’s wings are so big they take a vast amount of material and energy to grow. If you imagine an alternate reality where butterflies hatch fully formed from tiny eggs and begin to fly around right away, you begin to see the problem: those winged creatures could never eat enough material to grow the huge wings of an adult butterfly. The caterpillar solves this problem neatly by shedding the wings and just focusing on eating in order to store as much energy as possible. If you think about it, the butterfly is really just an animal that copies the (spatial) lifecycle of wind-dispersed plants. The imago phase (adult butterfly) follows the mobile seeds of a dandelion or maple tree. The caterpillar in turn stays with the rooted plant and feasts on it for material and energy. Butterflies are themselves pollinators of plants which illustrates how valuable a role dispersal is.

jareklupinski 3y ago
i'm going to start calling the process of converting my prototype to beta "metamorphosis"
peddling-brink 3y ago
This makes me think of the description of evolution in Dragon’s Egg. Great book.

BuyMyBitcoins 3y ago

Going a step further, the question of how metamorphosis evolved is even more puzzling.

simmerup 3y ago
300 million years and a lot of failed branches
XorNot 3y ago
It's an extreme version of reproductive optimization: a lot of animals have a reproductive strategy of "bank resources, then mate and die". Even things with complex neural systems like octopuses (who despite their intelligence, have no parents because they die after protecting their eggs). So how you get here sort of makes sense in that context: if reproduction is more successful if you delay it to collect resources, then it also follows that discarding any biomass you don't need once you've got enough to ensure the reproduction happens quickly and successfully afterwards would lead to this sort of strategy in extremis. A "prototype" caterpillar doesn't need to be able to fly - it just needs to do something which makes it more mobile and slightly more successful (and well, getting away from where you're born and spreading out is a good way to ensure the gene line isn't killed off entirely by one lucky predator).
- BuyMyBitcoins 3y ago
  I don’t want to sound like a creationist, but the process of metamorphosis itself seems so incredibly complicated that I struggle to imagine how the process could have evolved incrementally. Clearly, it did, so there must be an answer. It’s fascinating to ponder.
  - TerrifiedMouse 3y ago
    My guess is that it started simple. Early caterpillars probably didn't metamorph into something so drastically different. Even earlier ones probably barely had something that resembles metamorphosis.

mavhc 3y ago

Eighty percent of all animal species experience metamorphosis

nerdponx 3y ago
But is that because they're all bugs? Is metamorphosis basal or derived?