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Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids
- danw1979 3y agoGet yourself a big old tub of anhydrous citric acid from Amazon or wherever, make up a 10% solution and use that in place of rinse aid. Just check with your dishwasher manufacturer that it’s not going to cause issues first. I got a new Miele unit a few months ago and the manual specifically advises the use of such a solution, with caution not to make it any stronger. It’s been working like a charm.
- maayank 3y agoDoing the same for rinse aid. Didn’t find a practical alternative for the main cleaning solution.
- mathgeek 3y agoWhat are the advantages over plain vinegar? Been using that my whole life without any concern beyond wanting to avoid expensive rinse aids.
- pajko 3y agoVinegar destroys the rubber sealings.
- uniqueuid 3y agoVinegar can be a stronger acid than citric acid and has the potential to damage rubber sealings. That's why many manufacturers specifically advise against it.
- mathgeek 3y agoInteresting. I’ve used 5% for as long as I can remember, seems to be recommended for that reason. Just never bothered to look into it before as my units haven’t shown any damage. Thanks!
- zoklet-enjoyer 3y agoSame. I've used normal 5% vinegar for years and haven't had any problems.
- GuB-42 3y agoBesides chemical properties, citric acid may turn out to be cheaper, especially if bought in large quantities. But in the end, I think the cost savings of citric vs vinegar vs rinse aid is negligible. Usage should be about 5mL per wash (matches my experience), and even if you use fancy rinse aid, it is still a small fraction of the costs of running a dishwasher. Note that the article is concerned about professional dishwashers, they didn't reproduce their findings on household dishwashers. Professional dishwashers are very different from household dishwashers, and they use much higher concentration of detergent and rinse aid.
- chopin 3y agoVinegar is a solvent for many plastics.
- jasongill 3y agoFrom my experience, this will eventually remove any printed on markings from your glassware; for example, all of the measuring lines on Pyrex cups, etc. Not a huge deal, just worth noting
- KolenCh 3y agoIt can be a huge deal, making it worth nothing /s
- heftig 3y agoDoes it have to be anhydrous? Seems like a waste to go for the more expensive stuff when you're going to dissolve it anyway. Food-grade citric acid monohydrate should be cheaper.
- danw1979 3y agoThe manual just said a citric acid solution so I guess whatever source will do. I suppose it’s just as easy to get a reasonably accurate concentration if you account for the water already present in monohydrate.
- TedDoesntTalk 3y agoWhat do the dishes look like with this solution? I’ve never used rinse aid or any variants, and i wonder what I’m missing.
- dotancohen 3y agoAccording to another comment - you're _not_ missing the printed ink on your dishes. If you are happy with the state that your dishes come out of the wash, then you are fine.
- walthamstow 3y agoI'm not using rinse aid at all. Just dishwasher gel with no rinse aid included, and salt. Cheap-ish Beko dishwasher. No issues.
- hellotomyrars 3y agoAgreed, but I’m also someone who thinks dryer sheets are a scam as well.
- TedDoesntTalk 3y agoThey’re not?
- Night_Thastus 3y agoI personally find that if I don't use them, my socks, towels, etc all come out very stiff and dry. Yes, I know it's not ideal for towels because the wax inhibits some absorption, but I couldn't stand it so I just went back to using dryer sheets. Soon I'll be getting a good quality dryer with a steam sanitize mode, maybe that will help.
- amanaplanacanal 3y agoI use them on clothing, but not on towels. Best of both worlds.
- someuser2345 3y agoSo, you use the salt as a rinse aid?
- garblegarble 3y agoI've found rinse aids that include citric acid end up pitting stainless steel cutlery over time, so I avoid them
- cubefox 3y agoAccording to this review, citric acid doesn't work as a rinse aid replacement: https://www.test.de/Klarspueler-im-Test-Jeder-dritte-hinterlaesst-Flecken-5231923-5231929/ https://www.test.de/Klarspueler-im-Test-Jeder-dritte-hinterl...
- derwiki 3y agoThe last time an article like this went around, I decided to do the same thing with my Miele. The metal starting becoming stained pretty soon, and just recently I decided to switch to 7th Generation organic detergent powder. YMMV but wanted to share my anecdata for anyone considering the same.
- jlbooker 3y agoHow do you make "organic detergent"? Was it grown without synthetic pesticides, or...? I'm pretty skeptical of the word "organic" getting thrown around in marketing... so I'm really curious what makes a detergent qualify as organic.
- derwiki 3y agoApologies, I got the USDA certification wording wrong: it is a USDA Certified Biobased Product.
- ipqk 3y agoI stopped using rinse-aid entirely on my 10-year old Bosch, and barely notice a difference. Maybe plastics come out a tad wetter than before, but they were never fully dry even with rinse-aid.
- the-dude 3y ago(2022) 1 year ago, 411 comments : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33822149 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33822149 Got triggered by epithelial.
- peterpost2 3y agoI wonder if putting the dishwasher in soft water mode will also reduce the risk of this. Should use less rinse aid then.
- perlgeek 3y agoDoesn't the software/hard water mode just affect how much the ion exchanger (filled with salt) is used?
- peterpost2 3y agoYou could very well be correct, it's definitely not my field of expertise.
- cubefox 3y agoPerhaps, but as a matter of fact, soft water needs less rinse aid. Not sure whether the hardness setting of the dishwasher takes this into account.
- vjk800 3y agoCan someone who understands more about chemistry tell me where exactly which detergents use alcohol ethoxylates and how do I spot them from the label? Should I be concerned about this at home?
- dellamorta 3y agoHousehold dishwashers are not affected because they usually have an additional wash cycle in the end. This study is about professional machines which wash dishes in mere minutes. So you can't do anything about it if you still want to eat at restaurants and don't want to bring your own dishes.
- TedDoesntTalk 3y agoAlways wondered what dishes look like with rinse aid and why people buy it. What am I missing? Are my dishes and glasses not sparkly enough without this aid?
- dellamorta 3y agoAre you using tablets?
- TedDoesntTalk 3y agoNo - liquid. Why? Does it matter?
- dellamorta 3y agoTablets have rinse aid already added. I don't know anything about liquids, though. It is not a thing in Germany afaik.
- instagib 3y agoHard water. The rinse aid fixes that. Otherwise my glasses or silverware have to be rewashed and dried to get the spots out.
- sergioisidoro 3y agoOk, this is posed to generate some sensationalist headlines. Do we get these concentrations with regular use in a dishwasher? Does it have cumulative exposure effects? Does it even reach the gut lining after digestion enzymes and acids? From the summary it seems that they only investigated the dose dependent toxicity.
- rafaelferreira 3y agoThe summary says "detergent residue from professional dishwashers demonstrated the remnant of a significant amount of cytotoxic and epithelial barrier–damaging rinse aid remaining on washed and ready-to-use dishware", which might address the question about concentrations in regular use.
- sergioisidoro 3y agoFor me the word remnant confuses me. I interpreted it as "leftovers of a significant amount" not a "significant amount of leftovers", meaning that it was used in high quantities, but only remnants (in non significant amounts) were found.
- Zandikar 3y agoYou shouldn't assume remnant means "non significant", just "fewer"/"less than" what you started with. If only 5% of the substance remains (aka, the remnants) is still enough to cause problems, those are remnants by definition, but could still be significant amounts in terms of their (chance of) effects/impact. Side note, those numbers are entirely arbitrary to illustrate the point, not meant to be indicative in anyway of how much is actually left in the processes above.
- pierat 3y agoYou can say that, but a lot of detergents and rinse aids use the class of nasty chemicals. But there's detergents and rinse aids that don't have it. What you're looking for is "Alcohol ethoxylates". Avoid these.
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- refurb 3y agoScientists create a layer of intestinal epithelial cells in a lab, minus all the other components in your intestine, then expose them to high concentrations of detergent and rinse aid. Turns out cells don’t like it. Who’d a thunk it?
- r1ch 3y agoFrom my understanding, this article is only about professional dishwashers used in restaurants and hotels etc. that use much higher concentrations and less rinsing than consumer dishwashers. They specifically mention that they could not repeat their findings on consumer dishwashers.
- mikkom 3y ago> They specifically mention that they could not repeat their findings on consumer dishwashers. this should be the top comment
- mirekrusin 3y agoYes, but let me add my personal but - bottles for kids often have complex non leaking valves where detergent accumulates - as in you can see pieces of undissolved tablet every single time inside it. If missed it’ll affect little kids, every day, so be aware.
- pohl 3y agoAlso personal, but not every member of the family thinks about how water behaves — like how it pools — while loading the machine.
- bluejekyll 3y agoConstant debate between me and my significant other. She’s always annoyed that I go through and reorganize everything so that things drain and rinse properly.
- TedDoesntTalk 3y agoI did not see that in the article. Where is it?
- sschueller 3y agoYes but isn't this even worse? I can control what I use at home. I can't when I eat or drink out. So I get to pick between PFAS soaked throwaway single use cardboard cups or epithelial barrier damaging glass/ceramic ware.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- wsgeorge 3y agoOff topic: this is my first time hearing of rinse aids. It really feels odd (to me) that such a thing would exist. I thought we all just used water and a napkin. I also have no experience with dishwashers, so how different is dishwater detergent from regular dishwashing soap?
- dghughes 3y agoI thought the study meant the stuff used at the end after washing. Here in Canada bars and restaurants after washing dishes must rinse dishes in a disinfectant bath and let the dishes air dry. The rinse aid sounds like something in the soap itself that helps the soap not stick to the final clean dishes. It also seems to be the water used about 4 liters of water in commercial dishwashers vs 12 liters for household types. Commercial use less water, more powerful detergent, no water rinse.
- beowulfey 3y agoRinse aid is a dishwasher-specific product. It “helps” by removing residual soap and water spots from a dishwasher cycle. I use a brand of dishwasher tabs that are supposed to be more “natural” and never use rinse aid, to no ill effect. Personally I think the normal tablets and rinse aid are specifically designed to be used together.
- cubefox 3y agoTabs usually include both detergent and rinse aid. Normally you would use both separately.
- SAI_Peregrinus 3y agoRinse aid is a detergent that helps remove the residue other detergents or minerals in the water might leave on dishes after washing. It's not needed for hand washing, where mechanical scrubbing & a rinse with clean water performs the same task. Dishwasher detergent is a surfactant, but is not a soap. All soaps are detergents, not all detergents are soaps. Soaps form insoluble precipitates when used with "hard" water, dishwasher detergents don't do that. They're not good to touch directly (rather harsh on the skin, they'll remove all the oil) but since they don't form those precipitates they work in a wider variety of conditions than soaps do. They also tend to include some other components, like bleach. That helps them clean better without needing mechanical scrubbing, which dishwashers don't do.
- jongjong 3y agoInteresting, my mother taught me to always rinse the soap off from my dishes thoroughly and look at that. Sometimes superstition is more useful than expert advice.
- poizan42 3y agoWhat's superstitious about that? Soap isn't made for human consumption, it seems prudent to avoid consumption unless proven safe.
- fuzzfactor 3y agoMomma was the expert, it was always pure superstition for people to think they didn't need to rinse, not just once but multiple times. In the analytical chem lab, you can get an idea how suitable pyrexware is for future use by mathematically considering the quality of the final rinse water, the effective dilution ratio, and the number of times rinsed.
- jongjong 3y agoI should have said 'half-baked theories' or 'unfounded beliefs' instead of 'superstition'. Sometimes it's hard to find the ideal word.
- londons_explore 3y agoI really want safety tests for consumer products to not be black/white. Instead, more and more tests should be necessary for the more people you want to sell your product to, and the more people use it. Some toy you sell 1000 of to people at a craft fayre should require a simple declaration that you didn't knowingly use leaded paint, while something you sell 10 billion of (eg dishwasher tablets) should require a whole independent team of scientists to do every study they can think of the establish risk/benefit.
- londons_explore 3y agoAnyone who has touched an unwrapped dishwasher tablet with wet hands can tell you it has stuff in to pretty rapidly dissolve human...
- m463 3y agoMost residential dishwashers seem to have a rinse-aid dispenser that you fill up with usually finish jet-dry. It seems to have the alcohol ethoxylates mentioned in this paper: https://www.ewg.org/guides/cleaners/2994-FinishJetDryRinseAgentBasketLemon/ https://www.ewg.org/guides/cleaners/2994-FinishJetDryRinseAg... I expect it is also in the finish dishwasher detergent pods. digging deeper the wikipedia article on ethoxylation says: Ethoxylated fatty alcohols are often converted to the corresponding organosulfates, which can be easily deprotonated to give anionic surfactants such as sodium laureth sulfate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethoxylation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethoxylation I had trouble with SLS (sodium lauryl sulfate) and switched to toothpaste, shampoo and laundry detergents without this. This chemical has gotten a bad rap and a lot of formulas were changed to use sodium laureth sulfate mentioned above. (I avoided that too) I'll bet they are all trouble.
- stackzero 3y agoIs there an ELI5?
- pattmayne 3y agoAlcohol ephoxylate, which is present in rinse aid and some dishwasher pods,damages gut tissue and causes inflammatory and immune issues. The study looked at concentrations found in "professional" (restaurant) doses of the chemicals. I'm not sure how much it applies to residential dishwashers. I did find that ingredient in my rinse aid and dishwasher pods.
- jacobwilliamroy 3y agoThe stuff restaurants use to wash dishes is really bad for your tummy and very often that stuff is still on the dishes, while you're eating off of them.
- causi 3y agoHorrible title, since the study didn't actually link normal detergent to gut damage, just rinse aid.
- pattmayne 3y agoThe offending ingredient (alcohol ephoxylate) is present in both my dishwasher pods and my rinse aid. I might start skipping the rinse aid and I'll seek out dishwasher pods that don't have that ingredient. But apparently it's more od an issue with "professional" (restaurant) dishwashers, which use less water and more chemicals. I gathered this from other comments and I don't know if it's true.
- morsch 3y agoUse powder instead of pods. It's better anyway.
- broguinn 3y agoI've looked at the dishwasher detergents at a few of my local grocery stores, and all of them contain either ethoxylates or "fatty alcohol alkoxylates", which some brief googling tells me are a class of chemicals that include ethoxylates. I've been unable (even at specialty health food stores) to locate a dishwasher detergent that lacks this class of chemical. If you find a brand that doesn't contain it, please let me know. I also looked at home-made detergent recipes, as we've had good luck making our laundry detergent, but the blog I looked at showed severe streaking and residue on their example dishwasher load. I can't say that appeals to me, either.
- causi 3y agoGeneric Walmart powder doesn't seem to have it. https://www.walmart.com/ip/Great-Value-Automatic-Dishwasher-Powder-Original-Scent-75-oz/866649026?athbdg=L1102 https://www.walmart.com/ip/Great-Value-Automatic-Dishwasher-... Kroger gel and powder doesn't seem to have it. https://www.kroger.com/p/kroger-lemon-scent-dishwasher-detergent-gel/0001111008266 https://www.kroger.com/p/kroger-lemon-scent-dishwasher-deter... https://www.kroger.com/p/kroger-lemon-scent-dishwasher-detergent-powder/0001111080564 https://www.kroger.com/p/kroger-lemon-scent-dishwasher-deter... Frankly the harmful ingredients seem to be exclusive to pacs and pods.
- Sverigevader 3y agoInteresting! I bought metal straws a while back for use at home, and I used to clean them in the dishwasher. After a while I realized that my stomach acted up almost every time I used them (regular aspartame sweetened sodas). It stopped when I started washing them by hand. My theory: There was detergent or rinse aid left inside. About as unscientific as you can get but I'm "certain"...
- konamicode 3y agoI might be generalising but in some countries (UK) it's common to not rinse soap/washing up liquid off dishes after washing them by hand. Being hypochondriac I was always curious about health aspects of this and feared something similar to what's described in the article.
- cubefox 3y agoThough rinse aid is for mechanical dishwashers only.
- jwells89 3y agoI’m surprised that people don’t taste that in the food/drink they consume off their soapy dishes. It’s a distinct unpleasant taste that I tend to over rinse somewhat just to avoid, especially with cups/mugs where transfer is maximized.
- VyseofArcadia 3y agoI wonder if this, combined with the fact that eating out has gotten significantly more common, is a factor in rising colon cancer rates.
- cubefox 3y agoThere is a detailed article in German with more information: https://www.spektrum.de/news/klarspueler-gefahr-fuer-die-darmgesundheit-oder-falscher-alarm/2115231 https://www.spektrum.de/news/klarspueler-gefahr-fuer-die-dar... Overall, this sounds like the danger is rather low.
- eejjjj82 3y ago> Enterocytic liquid-liquid interfaces were established on permeable supports, and direct cellular cytotoxicity, transepithelial electrical resistance, paracellular flux, immunofluorescence staining, RNA-sequencing transcriptome, and targeted proteomics were performed. tldr; they did science
- raphlinus 3y agoIf you want to understand rinse aids better, I recommend this Technology Connections video (I've set the time stamp to the rinse aid section): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6-eGDpimU&t=1935s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6-eGDpimU&t=1935s
- mancerayder 3y agoAnyone noticed how they wash and rinse behind bars? It can be terrifying. The ones that don't use industrial dishwashers (bad as we're learning here) also just do a rapid sub 1 second dip into one sink with detergent chemicals, a sub 1 second dip onto a second water sink, and then upside down it goes on the shelf, ready to be reused. How naive was I to think it's both cleaning well and not leaving dangerous chemicals as residue to mix onto a water or beer.
- sizzle 3y agoHow effective would vinegar and the hottest water cycle be vs these gut destroying detergents?
- dgudkov 3y agoFrom the article: >An exciting finding of the present study is that alcohol ethoxylates that are responsible for these toxic effects can be extracted from recently washed dishware and still kept the toxicity. Scientists.