4 ms·

Perhaps to be fair we should let men retire earlier or collect larger social security checks, so the average total paid out would be roughly equal?

rafale 3y ago
[flagged]
- riquisimo 3y ago
  [dead]
- throwawaysleep 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - adventured 3y ago
    Feminists almost universally proclaim their ideology is in fact one of the pursuit of equality for all. That's the why. The name of course betrays the obvious and always has.
    - michaelhoney 3y ago
      This and the grandparent comment sound pretty resentful. Men, we can do better than that.
      - Dalewyn 3y ago
        As a man, I am resentful of feminists because they do not further the cause of equality. Feminists want to be more equal than others, which is just word games to say they want power over others. Quite sincerely, screw that noise. I know of many wonderful women (and men!) who truly believe in equality, and I would call precisely none of them feminists.
  - thelittleone 3y ago
    Shouldn't it be the job of men and women to tackle the problems of men and women?
    - throwawaysleep 3y ago
      I really don’t demand altruism of others. Seems like men aren’t generally interested in the problems of men.
  - womenist 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - slater 3y ago
      you made an account just to post that nonsense?
  - Sebb767 3y ago
    Because the few men at the top are just as much richer compared the absolute majority of men as they are to women. So, instead of picking a fight with 50% of humans, most of which share your problem, it would be far more useful to handle social issues as a team.
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
    If men and women are equal, the problems of one are also problems for the other and both must work towards the solutions. If men's problems are not the concern of women and vice versa, that implies men and women are not equal.
- Spivak 3y ago
  You're literally describing how the patriarchy hurts men. > when all those arguments explain the gender pay gap Yes. Which is why you focus on the delta. The end goal is for that to be more equal via breaking down the societal structures we've created where men are expected to take on more risk and women are pressured against from taking more dangerous work. You're a raging feminist. The patriarchy isn't "men." Both men and women contribute to it and are responsible for it. There's "women aren't cut out for..." which is the side everyone knows but it's also "if you can't provide for your family you're a deadbeat." A society that puts almost all the power in the hands of men shoulders all the responsibility on them too and it's literally killing them. You need to ask why men find themselves doing more dangerous work and taking on more risk? Or differently why don't women feel the need to? Because in our patriarchal society that's where the bar is for men. That's the role men have been placed into whether they want it or not. Here's a quote from The Bell Jar that distills it perfectly -- "what a man wants is is an arrow into the future and what a woman is is the place the arrow shoots off from." [1] Men are expected to be the forerunners striking it out into the unknown and women are expected to provide stability. And the idea is ingrained from birth. [1] For context Sylvia and the protagonist Esther violently disagree with this.
  - rafale 3y ago
    We shouldn't focus on the delta (the outcome) but the roots. If men take more risks and die sooner, so be it. If women get jobs that pay less and earn less, so be it. However, men should be able to take less dangerous jobs. And women should be able to take higher paying jobs. (I believe this is already the case) We should just be asking ourselves: "are we not limiting people's freedom, regardless of their sex, race, religion, <insert any other arbitrary way to partition a group>" If the answer is no, then we are good to go, even if we observe a delta in the outcomes (e.g. more blacks in NBA than whites... white are allowed to participate just as much, so the outcome doesn't matter).
    - Spivak 3y ago
      Basically yeah, you got it. Where it seems we disagree is you think we've met our obligation to not limit people's freedom once the walls are removed where I think that obligation is met once all the impediments are removed. The delta being wide and always in one direction is evidence that we missed some. It shouldn't be harder for one group or another and you shouldn't have to fight the current of societal expectations to do it.
- nl 3y ago
  > Feminism is the philosophy of cherry-picking Ironically there are weak arguments generalized from poor statements made by some unthoughtful people in many places.
- sapphicsnail 3y ago
  All the feminists I know also care about homelessness and suicide rates. You can believe in gender inequality and still care about men.
Manuel_D 3y ago
Let's aim for more modest goals, like just making men and women's retirement ages equal. But even that elicits protests: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-women-pensions-idUSKCN1NB2AM https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-women-pensions-id...
robocat 3y ago
The numbers given were for someone born today. See full table by age and race here: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/vsrr/vsrr023.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/vsrr/vsrr023.pdf At 65 the difference is 2.7 years: A 65 year old man has an expectancy of 81.9, compared against a 65 year old woman expectancy of 84.6.

rafale 3y ago

[flagged]

riquisimo 3y ago
[dead]
throwawaysleep 3y ago
[flagged]
- adventured 3y ago
  Feminists almost universally proclaim their ideology is in fact one of the pursuit of equality for all. That's the why. The name of course betrays the obvious and always has.
  - michaelhoney 3y ago
    This and the grandparent comment sound pretty resentful. Men, we can do better than that.
    - Dalewyn 3y ago
      As a man, I am resentful of feminists because they do not further the cause of equality. Feminists want to be more equal than others, which is just word games to say they want power over others. Quite sincerely, screw that noise. I know of many wonderful women (and men!) who truly believe in equality, and I would call precisely none of them feminists.
- thelittleone 3y ago
  Shouldn't it be the job of men and women to tackle the problems of men and women?
  - throwawaysleep 3y ago
    I really don’t demand altruism of others. Seems like men aren’t generally interested in the problems of men.
- womenist 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - slater 3y ago
    you made an account just to post that nonsense?
- Sebb767 3y ago
  Because the few men at the top are just as much richer compared the absolute majority of men as they are to women. So, instead of picking a fight with 50% of humans, most of which share your problem, it would be far more useful to handle social issues as a team.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  If men and women are equal, the problems of one are also problems for the other and both must work towards the solutions. If men's problems are not the concern of women and vice versa, that implies men and women are not equal.
Spivak 3y ago
You're literally describing how the patriarchy hurts men. > when all those arguments explain the gender pay gap Yes. Which is why you focus on the delta. The end goal is for that to be more equal via breaking down the societal structures we've created where men are expected to take on more risk and women are pressured against from taking more dangerous work. You're a raging feminist. The patriarchy isn't "men." Both men and women contribute to it and are responsible for it. There's "women aren't cut out for..." which is the side everyone knows but it's also "if you can't provide for your family you're a deadbeat." A society that puts almost all the power in the hands of men shoulders all the responsibility on them too and it's literally killing them. You need to ask why men find themselves doing more dangerous work and taking on more risk? Or differently why don't women feel the need to? Because in our patriarchal society that's where the bar is for men. That's the role men have been placed into whether they want it or not. Here's a quote from The Bell Jar that distills it perfectly -- "what a man wants is is an arrow into the future and what a woman is is the place the arrow shoots off from." [1] Men are expected to be the forerunners striking it out into the unknown and women are expected to provide stability. And the idea is ingrained from birth. [1] For context Sylvia and the protagonist Esther violently disagree with this.
- rafale 3y ago
  We shouldn't focus on the delta (the outcome) but the roots. If men take more risks and die sooner, so be it. If women get jobs that pay less and earn less, so be it. However, men should be able to take less dangerous jobs. And women should be able to take higher paying jobs. (I believe this is already the case) We should just be asking ourselves: "are we not limiting people's freedom, regardless of their sex, race, religion, <insert any other arbitrary way to partition a group>" If the answer is no, then we are good to go, even if we observe a delta in the outcomes (e.g. more blacks in NBA than whites... white are allowed to participate just as much, so the outcome doesn't matter).
  - Spivak 3y ago
    Basically yeah, you got it. Where it seems we disagree is you think we've met our obligation to not limit people's freedom once the walls are removed where I think that obligation is met once all the impediments are removed. The delta being wide and always in one direction is evidence that we missed some. It shouldn't be harder for one group or another and you shouldn't have to fight the current of societal expectations to do it.
nl 3y ago
> Feminism is the philosophy of cherry-picking Ironically there are weak arguments generalized from poor statements made by some unthoughtful people in many places.
sapphicsnail 3y ago
All the feminists I know also care about homelessness and suicide rates. You can believe in gender inequality and still care about men.

Manuel_D 3y ago

Let's aim for more modest goals, like just making men and women's retirement ages equal. But even that elicits protests: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-women-pensions-idUSKCN1NB2AM https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-women-pensions-id...

robocat 3y ago

The numbers given were for someone born today. See full table by age and race here: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/vsrr/vsrr023.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/vsrr/vsrr023.pdf At 65 the difference is 2.7 years: A 65 year old man has an expectancy of 81.9, compared against a 65 year old woman expectancy of 84.6.