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> I don't have much hope for Mars, considering we can't even take care of this planet The hard part of taking care of this planet is that every inch is covered

> I don't have much hope for Mars, considering we can't even take care of this planet The hard part of taking care of this planet is that every inch is covered with intricate and interconnected systems already. Almost anything you do is guaranteed to have significant side effects and the effort required to mitigate them is extreme. In space this is much less of a problem, comparatively speaking.

vouaobrasil 3y ago
No, the hard part of taking care of this planet is that we keep chasing after a lifestyle that is farther and farther away from nature. It's a choice we've made, not something intrinsic to the world.
- ghufran_syed 3y ago
  Dying of tetanus after a cut, or dying in childbirth is pretty natural - and electricity, computers and the internet are pretty unnatural. I'm glad I live in an "unnatural" time and place
- feoren 3y ago
  We can have nice things and also take care of the planet. If your suggested solution to climate change is that we all wear loincloths and live out in the trees, foraging for a paleo diet, then your suggestion is going to be immediately ignored by everyone. There's no point in even suggesting trying to return to pre-industrial times, especially since we very clearly do not need to. Climate change is a massive engineering and social problem, but somehow reverting to pre-industrial times is an order of magnitude harder on both fronts. And pointless.
  - vouaobrasil 3y ago
    I'm not suggesting returning to pre-industrial times, but rather slowing down the development of technology and getting rid of some technology.
- FredPret 3y ago
  But you are free to peace out, put your phone down, and go live in a cave if you want... at any point
  - ethanbond 3y ago
    Which obviously won't rescue you from the negative consequences of everyone around you choosing to pump combusted fossil fuels into the air you breathe. All the same costs and none of the benefits: what a pitch!
    - FredPret 3y ago
      Ah, so we ALL have to go back to the caves with you, for your sake. Got it.
      - ethanbond 3y ago
        Well, no, not me. I didn't make that argument to begin with, I was just pointing out how nonsensical your counterargument was. Yeah, if mass production and mass consumption is causing the problem, distributed across the commons, then it's pretty obvious that an individual choosing to "opt out" isn't going to solve the problem.
        FredPret 3y ago
        Parent wanted to be "closer to nature", my solution would work perfectly for him. By the way, as creatures that evolved into a world already engaged in tool use and cooking on camp fires, we are fundamentally technological. That smartphone is as natural as a shrub. It's just new, that's the only difference.
        ethanbond 3y ago
        > the hard part of taking care of this planet is… GP’s motive is to take care of the planet (and reading between the lines: at least our ability to inhabit it comfortably, since of course the piece of rock will be just fine no matter what we do). No, age is obviously not the only difference between old technologies and new technologies. Age is the difference between an old hand axe made out of stone and a new hand axe made out of stone. The difference between an old hand axe made out of stone and an iPhone 15 goes… umm… a bit deeper.
yowzadave 3y ago
> every inch is covered with intricate and interconnected systems already The intricate and interconnected systems are what is required to make Earth habitable! If you wanted to live on Mars, you'd have to replicate the same complexity synthetically. Hopefully we can learn to treat the Earth with the same care that you'd treat the oxygen production system for your Martian bubble.
- jjoonathan 3y ago
  Yes, but on Earth you have the option of being a bastard who pushes your problems onto other systems. On Mars you have no choice but to develop closed circular systems. It's harder to engineer but harder to sin, too. I have high hopes that we will figure out the engineering. I have low hopes that we will figure out how to systematically avoid temptation. I think space exploration is the best way to figure out circular systems at scale, and hopefully those lessons can be backported.

vouaobrasil 3y ago

No, the hard part of taking care of this planet is that we keep chasing after a lifestyle that is farther and farther away from nature. It's a choice we've made, not something intrinsic to the world.

ghufran_syed 3y ago
Dying of tetanus after a cut, or dying in childbirth is pretty natural - and electricity, computers and the internet are pretty unnatural. I'm glad I live in an "unnatural" time and place
feoren 3y ago
We can have nice things and also take care of the planet. If your suggested solution to climate change is that we all wear loincloths and live out in the trees, foraging for a paleo diet, then your suggestion is going to be immediately ignored by everyone. There's no point in even suggesting trying to return to pre-industrial times, especially since we very clearly do not need to. Climate change is a massive engineering and social problem, but somehow reverting to pre-industrial times is an order of magnitude harder on both fronts. And pointless.
- vouaobrasil 3y ago
  I'm not suggesting returning to pre-industrial times, but rather slowing down the development of technology and getting rid of some technology.
FredPret 3y ago
But you are free to peace out, put your phone down, and go live in a cave if you want... at any point
- ethanbond 3y ago
  Which obviously won't rescue you from the negative consequences of everyone around you choosing to pump combusted fossil fuels into the air you breathe. All the same costs and none of the benefits: what a pitch!
  - FredPret 3y ago
    Ah, so we ALL have to go back to the caves with you, for your sake. Got it.
    - ethanbond 3y ago
      Well, no, not me. I didn't make that argument to begin with, I was just pointing out how nonsensical your counterargument was. Yeah, if mass production and mass consumption is causing the problem, distributed across the commons, then it's pretty obvious that an individual choosing to "opt out" isn't going to solve the problem.
      - FredPret 3y ago
        Parent wanted to be "closer to nature", my solution would work perfectly for him. By the way, as creatures that evolved into a world already engaged in tool use and cooking on camp fires, we are fundamentally technological. That smartphone is as natural as a shrub. It's just new, that's the only difference.
        ethanbond 3y ago
        > the hard part of taking care of this planet is… GP’s motive is to take care of the planet (and reading between the lines: at least our ability to inhabit it comfortably, since of course the piece of rock will be just fine no matter what we do). No, age is obviously not the only difference between old technologies and new technologies. Age is the difference between an old hand axe made out of stone and a new hand axe made out of stone. The difference between an old hand axe made out of stone and an iPhone 15 goes… umm… a bit deeper.

yowzadave 3y ago

> every inch is covered with intricate and interconnected systems already The intricate and interconnected systems are what is required to make Earth habitable! If you wanted to live on Mars, you'd have to replicate the same complexity synthetically. Hopefully we can learn to treat the Earth with the same care that you'd treat the oxygen production system for your Martian bubble.

jjoonathan 3y ago
Yes, but on Earth you have the option of being a bastard who pushes your problems onto other systems. On Mars you have no choice but to develop closed circular systems. It's harder to engineer but harder to sin, too. I have high hopes that we will figure out the engineering. I have low hopes that we will figure out how to systematically avoid temptation. I think space exploration is the best way to figure out circular systems at scale, and hopefully those lessons can be backported.