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So, using Polestar as a reference as it's both a vehicle that I've worked on, and one that I personally drive. > Maybe they've got a test fleet, but it accepts

So, using Polestar as a reference as it's both a vehicle that I've worked on, and one that I personally drive. > Maybe they've got a test fleet, but it accepts code signed with the test build key. Polestar solves this by only delivering signed updates to their vehicles. The vehicle headunit will refuse to flash a partition that isn't signed by the private key held by Polestar. Pulls double duty to prevent someone from flashing a malicious update, as well as corruption detection. > Maybe they've got a watchdog timer, but it doesn't get configured until later in the boot process. Based on what the Rivian reports are showing (Speedometer, cameras, safety systems are working), they likely are running their infotainment as a "virtual machine" within their systems. Again, something that Polestar does. Implementation of a watchdog with a "sub-system" like this is relatively braindead simple. > Maybe they've got A/B boot partitions, but trouble counting their boot attempts - maybe they don't have any writable storage that early in the boot process. Generally, A/B partitioning is part of the bootloader, the first program that executes after the reset (on many modern processors) pin is released. This also leads to reboot counters and such being stored as part of the NVRAM that is available at boot. Opinion: Maybe I'm biased, but maybe if you can't develop something yourself, there's reason for you to get an off the shelf option that handles a lot of these things. Disclaimer: Former Googler, Worked closely with Automotive.

refulgentis 3y ago
Opinion: I'm a little confused as to how you're confused as to how test might not match prod sometimes. Observation: "[if you write buggy software], there's reason for you to get an off the shelf option" Question: Are you saying if they used Android Automotive this could never have happened? Reference: similar event for Android, last week: https://linustechtips.com/topic/1538248-pixel-phones-using-multiple-profiles-are-being-soft-bricked-by-newest-os-update/ https://linustechtips.com/topic/1538248-pixel-phones-using-m... Disclaimer: Former Googler, did not Work closely with Automotive, Worked closely with Android.
- qmarchi 3y ago
  Answer: To clarify, more that a company should stick to their core competencies unless there's a drastic need or opening in the market that could be filled (and to build a new competency). In this particular case, there's nothing particularly unique that Rivian is doing with their Infotainment system that couldn't already be handled by an incumbent in the space, (Android Automotive, QNX, etc.) especially given how modular the systems themselves are. As State Farm says, "We know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two".
  - hermitdev 3y ago
    > As State Farm says, "We know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two". That's Farmers, delivered by J.K. Simmons, not State Farm. State Farm is Jake, in his khakis.
  - bo1024 3y ago
    Rivian thinks of itself as a software company. The first thing you sign when you go to buy a vehicle is a software copyright notice IIRC. The first thing in the owner's manual is a notice that the software copyrights and intellectual property belong to Rivian, etc etc.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      I'm not in the market but I would laugh all the way to the door if that happened.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
Gud 3y ago
To be honest, I don't think Polestar set a very high bar for software quality. I am currently renting a Polestar 2 from Hertz, and sometimes the HUD doesn't work(it's 50/50 if it will turn on). That means, I don't see speed, battery charge, etc, while driving. Infotainment system is working though.
- qmarchi 3y ago
  You're definitely correct in the fact that Polestar isn't the highest in software quality, but it was the examples of what they did right that I wanted to focus on. They're garbage when it comes to their mobile app and some of the controls on the infotainment system. > sometimes the HUD doesn't work(it's 50/50 if it will turn on). You should definitely reach out to Hertz and ask for a car swap. Sounds like there's a bad connection between the display and the IHU. Both screens are operated by the same system, so it's unlikely to be a software failure.
- BlueTemplar 3y ago
  Sounds ridiculous. How is that even road legal ?!?
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    Teslas occasionally need to reboot / hard reset their software too, when driving no less, and during that period all that information, and most of the controls, are unavailable (like windshield wipers, etc.)
    - Terr_ 3y ago
      > Teslas occasionally need to reboot / hard reset their software too, when driving no less Move over, Microsoft, I think I've found an update policy I hate even more...
      - yreg 3y ago
        It's not related to update policy, it happens when the infotainment crashes.
paledot 3y ago
> The vehicle headunit will refuse to flash a partition that isn't signed by the private key held by Polestar. Pulls double duty to prevent someone from flashing a malicious update, as well as corruption detection. And of course preventing people from modifying and controlling hardware that they own, having paid 6 figures for (in the case of the Polestar 3 anyway). But that's table stakes for embedded systems in this day and age. Security for me, not for thee.

refulgentis 3y ago

Opinion: I'm a little confused as to how you're confused as to how test might not match prod sometimes. Observation: "[if you write buggy software], there's reason for you to get an off the shelf option" Question: Are you saying if they used Android Automotive this could never have happened? Reference: similar event for Android, last week: https://linustechtips.com/topic/1538248-pixel-phones-using-multiple-profiles-are-being-soft-bricked-by-newest-os-update/ https://linustechtips.com/topic/1538248-pixel-phones-using-m... Disclaimer: Former Googler, did not Work closely with Automotive, Worked closely with Android.

qmarchi 3y ago
Answer: To clarify, more that a company should stick to their core competencies unless there's a drastic need or opening in the market that could be filled (and to build a new competency). In this particular case, there's nothing particularly unique that Rivian is doing with their Infotainment system that couldn't already be handled by an incumbent in the space, (Android Automotive, QNX, etc.) especially given how modular the systems themselves are. As State Farm says, "We know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two".
- hermitdev 3y ago
  > As State Farm says, "We know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two". That's Farmers, delivered by J.K. Simmons, not State Farm. State Farm is Jake, in his khakis.
- bo1024 3y ago
  Rivian thinks of itself as a software company. The first thing you sign when you go to buy a vehicle is a software copyright notice IIRC. The first thing in the owner's manual is a notice that the software copyrights and intellectual property belong to Rivian, etc etc.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    I'm not in the market but I would laugh all the way to the door if that happened.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

Gud 3y ago

To be honest, I don't think Polestar set a very high bar for software quality. I am currently renting a Polestar 2 from Hertz, and sometimes the HUD doesn't work(it's 50/50 if it will turn on). That means, I don't see speed, battery charge, etc, while driving. Infotainment system is working though.

qmarchi 3y ago
You're definitely correct in the fact that Polestar isn't the highest in software quality, but it was the examples of what they did right that I wanted to focus on. They're garbage when it comes to their mobile app and some of the controls on the infotainment system. > sometimes the HUD doesn't work(it's 50/50 if it will turn on). You should definitely reach out to Hertz and ask for a car swap. Sounds like there's a bad connection between the display and the IHU. Both screens are operated by the same system, so it's unlikely to be a software failure.
BlueTemplar 3y ago
Sounds ridiculous. How is that even road legal ?!?
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  Teslas occasionally need to reboot / hard reset their software too, when driving no less, and during that period all that information, and most of the controls, are unavailable (like windshield wipers, etc.)
  - Terr_ 3y ago
    > Teslas occasionally need to reboot / hard reset their software too, when driving no less Move over, Microsoft, I think I've found an update policy I hate even more...
    - yreg 3y ago
      It's not related to update policy, it happens when the infotainment crashes.

paledot 3y ago

> The vehicle headunit will refuse to flash a partition that isn't signed by the private key held by Polestar. Pulls double duty to prevent someone from flashing a malicious update, as well as corruption detection. And of course preventing people from modifying and controlling hardware that they own, having paid 6 figures for (in the case of the Polestar 3 anyway). But that's table stakes for embedded systems in this day and age. Security for me, not for thee.