4 ms·

That pertains to the direct heating with electricity? Of course it's ought to be expensive because of naturally low efficiency of electricity production from sa

That pertains to the direct heating with electricity? Of course it's ought to be expensive because of naturally low efficiency of electricity production from same natural gas with power plant being a heat engine that can't overcome natural limit put in place by Carnot cycle. Try heat pumps.

datadrivenangel 3y ago
Heat pumps are usually ~5x the efficiency of direct resistance heating, so they should be cheaper than gas! (this depends on climate though, as lower outside temperatures reduce the efficiency of the heat pump and increase the stress on the device)
- travoc 3y ago
  That's true unless it gets really cold, where heat pumps become almost completely useless. In many parts of the US, heat pumps have to be augmented by the installation of emergency resistance heating elements. In the conditions where those system have to operate, they are less effective than gas and extremely expensive to run.
  - pydry 3y ago
    Modern heat pumps can work down to 0F https://homeinspectioninsider.com/heat-pump-work-subzero-temperatures/ https://homeinspectioninsider.com/heat-pump-work-subzero-tem... Denver pretty much never gets that cold. Most of the continental US doesnt ever get that cold.
- slackfan 3y ago
  Heatpumps work as heat only in climates where temps never hit 0c for a prolonged period of time. You go below 0c for a month, enjoy your baseboard-levels of efficiency. Some anecdata: Neighbor is on heatpumps and has a comparable house (in terms of size) to mine. My house is significantly older than his, worse in terms of insulation, I have a number of old leaky windows, all of his are brand new, etc. I primarily heat with wood, with a oil furnace backup that runs a forced hot air system. His bill for four straight months last winter for electricity was 800 dollars a month (3200). My total for oil+wood was 2400 total and I still had firewood left over. He also got to deal with the fun of heatpumps just not working in the dead of winter because it was too cold outside.
  - KptMarchewa 3y ago
    Newer heat pumps work well in much lower temperatures https://www.mncee.org/cold-climate-air-source-heat-pump-final-report https://www.mncee.org/cold-climate-air-source-heat-pump-fina...
    - slackfan 3y ago
      He installed the (brand new) heatpumps last year, which made the sting of it even worse. Also per that report "can operate" which is very different from "operate without issue" or "operate efficiently".
  - GordonS 3y ago
    And yet, heatpumps are very popular across Scandinavia. All my Norwegian friends and colleagues seem to use them, and those I've talked to about it say they work just fine - even airsource pumps when it's -20C!
    - slackfan 3y ago
      New Mitsubishi Heatpumps that have been hyped up to hell and back here. Past -14c they flat out stopped working for him. I'm sure there'll be a lot of "oh it's the type of heatpump" "oh it's the installation" thing, but he isn't the only aquaintance I have who has seen absolutely diddly-squat for heating efficiency when using heatpumps. Around these parts, if it isn't setting something on fire, then you're probably doing heating wrong. >Nordics The average low winter temps in Stockholm are what, -5c? Oslo doesn't really get below -10-ish? Non-northern nordics are an indicator of approximately nothing in this discussion. :) Finland loves their steam/hydronic heat, which I will guarantee isn't being run off of heat pumps. Anything that's closer to the ocean is going to have a significantly milder winter than going proper north.
      - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
        Above, you claimed that they don't work when the temps hit 0C. Now you tell us a story about them not working at -14C. That's a fairly big difference. Our pumps (mitsubishi hyperheats) struggle a little at 5F (-15C) but they do not stop working, and that's in an old house with terrible insulation. > Finland loves their steam/hydronic heat, which I will guarantee isn't being run off of heat pumps. In my case, the steam is being generated by the 240V electric steam generator that takes power from my 7kW ground mount solar array.
- brummm 3y ago
  Like the other commenter hinted on, it depends on the ambient temperature. While for certain temperate ranges (above 0C) heat pumps are in their high efficiency range and depending on local electricity prices might be cheaper, it can change quickly once temepratures go below freezing. So there is a break even point where heating with gas is cheaper below that temperature and above heating with electricity through the heat pump is cheaper. Where that temperature is, depends on gas and electricity prices as well as your heat pump
- lnsru 3y ago
  ~5x sounds like a magic to me. Let’s stay closer to ~3x over the heating season in southern Germany. Heat pumps are operating not always in ideal range here.
graywh 3y ago
> For one thing, the definition of “using electricity to heat their homes” used by the federal energy office appears to mean the use of electrical resistance baseboard heating versus natural gas heated-air furnaces.
throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
The article addresses that
BeetleB 3y ago
I know I'm breaking the rules, but ... please read the actual article. Where I live, heat pumps are usually still not cheaper per month. And even when they are, the amount people save doesn't make up for the added cost of a heat pump. If you want to be green, get a heat pump. If you want to save money, don't.

datadrivenangel 3y ago

Heat pumps are usually ~5x the efficiency of direct resistance heating, so they should be cheaper than gas! (this depends on climate though, as lower outside temperatures reduce the efficiency of the heat pump and increase the stress on the device)

travoc 3y ago
That's true unless it gets really cold, where heat pumps become almost completely useless. In many parts of the US, heat pumps have to be augmented by the installation of emergency resistance heating elements. In the conditions where those system have to operate, they are less effective than gas and extremely expensive to run.
- pydry 3y ago
  Modern heat pumps can work down to 0F https://homeinspectioninsider.com/heat-pump-work-subzero-temperatures/ https://homeinspectioninsider.com/heat-pump-work-subzero-tem... Denver pretty much never gets that cold. Most of the continental US doesnt ever get that cold.
slackfan 3y ago
Heatpumps work as heat only in climates where temps never hit 0c for a prolonged period of time. You go below 0c for a month, enjoy your baseboard-levels of efficiency. Some anecdata: Neighbor is on heatpumps and has a comparable house (in terms of size) to mine. My house is significantly older than his, worse in terms of insulation, I have a number of old leaky windows, all of his are brand new, etc. I primarily heat with wood, with a oil furnace backup that runs a forced hot air system. His bill for four straight months last winter for electricity was 800 dollars a month (3200). My total for oil+wood was 2400 total and I still had firewood left over. He also got to deal with the fun of heatpumps just not working in the dead of winter because it was too cold outside.
- KptMarchewa 3y ago
  Newer heat pumps work well in much lower temperatures https://www.mncee.org/cold-climate-air-source-heat-pump-final-report https://www.mncee.org/cold-climate-air-source-heat-pump-fina...
  - slackfan 3y ago
    He installed the (brand new) heatpumps last year, which made the sting of it even worse. Also per that report "can operate" which is very different from "operate without issue" or "operate efficiently".
- GordonS 3y ago
  And yet, heatpumps are very popular across Scandinavia. All my Norwegian friends and colleagues seem to use them, and those I've talked to about it say they work just fine - even airsource pumps when it's -20C!
  - slackfan 3y ago
    New Mitsubishi Heatpumps that have been hyped up to hell and back here. Past -14c they flat out stopped working for him. I'm sure there'll be a lot of "oh it's the type of heatpump" "oh it's the installation" thing, but he isn't the only aquaintance I have who has seen absolutely diddly-squat for heating efficiency when using heatpumps. Around these parts, if it isn't setting something on fire, then you're probably doing heating wrong. >Nordics The average low winter temps in Stockholm are what, -5c? Oslo doesn't really get below -10-ish? Non-northern nordics are an indicator of approximately nothing in this discussion. :) Finland loves their steam/hydronic heat, which I will guarantee isn't being run off of heat pumps. Anything that's closer to the ocean is going to have a significantly milder winter than going proper north.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
      Above, you claimed that they don't work when the temps hit 0C. Now you tell us a story about them not working at -14C. That's a fairly big difference. Our pumps (mitsubishi hyperheats) struggle a little at 5F (-15C) but they do not stop working, and that's in an old house with terrible insulation. > Finland loves their steam/hydronic heat, which I will guarantee isn't being run off of heat pumps. In my case, the steam is being generated by the 240V electric steam generator that takes power from my 7kW ground mount solar array.
brummm 3y ago
Like the other commenter hinted on, it depends on the ambient temperature. While for certain temperate ranges (above 0C) heat pumps are in their high efficiency range and depending on local electricity prices might be cheaper, it can change quickly once temepratures go below freezing. So there is a break even point where heating with gas is cheaper below that temperature and above heating with electricity through the heat pump is cheaper. Where that temperature is, depends on gas and electricity prices as well as your heat pump
lnsru 3y ago
~5x sounds like a magic to me. Let’s stay closer to ~3x over the heating season in southern Germany. Heat pumps are operating not always in ideal range here.

graywh 3y ago

> For one thing, the definition of “using electricity to heat their homes” used by the federal energy office appears to mean the use of electrical resistance baseboard heating versus natural gas heated-air furnaces.

throwawaaarrgh 3y ago

The article addresses that

BeetleB 3y ago

I know I'm breaking the rules, but ... please read the actual article. Where I live, heat pumps are usually still not cheaper per month. And even when they are, the amount people save doesn't make up for the added cost of a heat pump. If you want to be green, get a heat pump. If you want to save money, don't.