13 ms·

48-nation bloc to crack down on using crypto assets to avoid tax

107 points by ljf 3y ago

roenxi 3y ago
> ... and a lousy store of value I expect this to be true eventually, but so far Bitcoin has been doing OK as a store of value. Unless people bought in the relatively short peaks, HODLers aren't losing crazy amount of money and one could reasonably anticipate that it'll reach $60k/bitcoin again in the near future. There seem to be people convinced that the crypto types are coming out a long way behind but I'm not really seeing it in the prices. It isn't as stable as the gold market, but it is easy to draw loose comparisons and acquiring/storing crypto is a lot more normal-person-friendly. It also looks like a strong bet in politically uncertain situations; if there is one asset I'd want when fleeing a country it'd be crypto.
- CJefferson 3y ago
  "crypto types" isn't just bitcoin, and most crypto currencies, and most NFTs have crashed to basically zero. You are right that bitcoin, and a couple of others, are staying strong.
  - roenxi 3y ago
    The effect though, by natural flows, is the things are collapsing are almost automatically the fringe plays. At worst, soon forgotten. Something similar happens in the stock market, the winners are so large and win so hard that the losers are almost irrelevant. All the crypto I own are behaving with downright steady prices. It has been a boring ride for me so far. The risk of me losing large value quickly seems to have more to do with my questionable key-keeping practices than the market.
  - j_maffe 3y ago
    > most crypto currencies, and most NFTs have crashed to basically zero. That's just plain untrue.
- ljf 3y ago
  I was talking to a very pro-crypto friend - part of my (sour grapes) issue with Bitcoin is that is actually a pretty impractical way to purchase items day to day - but he pointed out that this is more of a feature than a bug. He likened it to buying and selling physical gold as a store of value, I hadn't thought of it that way before. I am still stinging from not buying in when I first became aware of it (approx. $1 at the time) - but I honestly could have bought in at any point of the last 10 years (except the highs of 2021) and still come out in profit.
  - lawn 3y ago
    There's a large amount of copium regarding this. In no way is it a feature that Bitcoin transactions are expensive. At best it's a negative that that's acceptable given the other benefits.
  - Analemma_ 3y ago
    > but he pointed out that this is more of a feature than a bug -- he likened it to buying and selling physical gold as a store of value This is a lot of cope and ex post facto justification. "Store of value which can't actually be used for real-world transactions" was absolutely not the rallying cry for Bitcoin for its first many years of existence, and people only pivoted to that when it became undeniable that Bitcoin was not fit for its original intended purpose. If it serves the new purpose well enough, then great, but don't let your friend fool you that everything is going completely according to plan.
    - throw0101c 3y ago
      > This is a lot of cope and ex post facto justification. First sentence of the original paper: > Abstract. A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution. […] * https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
    - petertodd 3y ago
      > and people only pivoted to that when it became undeniable that Bitcoin was not fit for its original intended purpose. These days it is likely(1) that the majority of Bitcoin transactions by number(2) are being done via the layer 2 system Lightning, which does have nearly instant payments and low fees. Transactions via Lightning are not recorded on the blockchain, even though you can easily hold funds in a non-custodial way. I happen to be in El Salvador at the moment, and with the exception of the Chivo Bitcoin ATMs run by the government, every single vendor selling things for Bitcoin has accepted Lightning. 1) It's hard to know for sure, as Lightning transactions have quite good privacy, so it's difficult to get estimates of how many there are in total. But decent lower-bound estimates exist: https://bitcoinmagazine.com/markets/lightning-network-sees-record-adoption-amidst-new-applications https://bitcoinmagazine.com/markets/lightning-network-sees-r... 2) Of course, by value it's very likely that on-chain transactions dominate, as there are lots of very high value, multi-million+, transactions out there.
- fdkjhasdf 3y ago
  > ...Unless people bought in the relatively short peaks... That's a bit minimalistic, no? The "short peak" of $50-60k (around 50-100% more than the current value) lasted something like 6 months AFAIK? To be a store of value, you would hope those fluctuations would be nonexistant. Store of value should be for everyone, not just the unlucky ones...
- this_user 3y ago
  > but so far Bitcoin has been doing OK as a store of value No, it hasn't. A store of value is supposed to be stable, it's about volatility. By that same reasoning you could argue that Apple or Tesla stock, or even the stock market in general, is a great store of value. But nobody would ever call it that, because it is far too volatile on a daily basis. Trying to argue that a vague long-term uptrend in prices makes something a store of value is just more intellectually dishonest cope by cryptobros who are desperate to defend this useless technology.
  - seydor 3y ago
    Volatile compared to what? Dollars. The us government is able to steer dollar as it likes but that comes with violence, it's not "naturally" stable
  - josu 3y ago
    >a vague long-term uptrend in prices makes something a store of value A stable and 100% predetermined issuance schedule, along with its scarcity, it's what makes Bitcoin a good store of value. The steady uptrend in prices is the consequence. >useless technology. Just because it's functionality is limited it doesn't make it useless. A store of value that doesn't require boring the planet, or building empty houses, seems like a great improvement to me. I think that you are conflating the cryptobro culture, with the true value that Bitcoin brings to the table.
    - skulk 3y ago
      > A store of value that doesn't require boring the planet, or building empty houses, seems like a great improvement to me. Boring holes isn't tenable but using 15 GW of power is acceptable?
      - siftrics 3y ago
        Energy will continue to get cheaper and less scarce over the long term. This is a bad argument.
      - josu 3y ago
- Geee 3y ago
  People confuse a lot of things about volatility, risk, and long term valuation. Bitcoin is an inherently good long term store of value, because it has deterministic and finite inflation schedule, which is also plausibly immutable (contrary to fiat cryptocurrencies, called "cryptos"). On the other hand, fiat currencies are a lousy store of value, because they have non-deterministic, but always positive inflation schedule, i.e. they are guaranteed to lose value in the long term. These are just objective facts about their inherent properties. In addition, Bitcoin includes cryptographic property protection, making it a better store of value in jurisdictions where local authorities won't provide property protection, or the cost of property protection is high. For example, in many countries, it's illegal to own US dollars. Bitcoin is easier to hide and use discreetly, compared to anything physical. Volatility is a property of the market, not a property of the asset. All things considered, bitcoin should get less and less volatile when time goes on, assuming that it continues gaining adoption. Which is given, as it doesn't have any competition.
  - siftrics 3y ago
    > contrary to fiat cryptocurrencies, called "cryptos" This is wrong. No one says this.
    - tnel77 3y ago
      It’s pretty common in the Bitcoin community.
  - theorytheory22 3y ago
    You're missing the forest through the trees. Bitcoin doesn't have value beyond what can be converted into real currency. Real currency is used to buy things. BTC isn't. The currency-BTC market IS the entire value of Bitcoin. None of the other stuff matters, because BTC is solely denominated in actual currencies. BTC is non-inflationary? Doesn't matter. You only use it to buy USD or actual currencies. If there's less demand for BTC, BTC value goes down. And guess what? Demand is fickle. The cyrptographic property protection is ok in theory. But try and point out somebody it's helped? And by that I mean a non-criminal/extortionist/money launderer.
ljf 3y ago
Think it is interesting that (British linked) tax havens have signed up to this too - but I guess this is more down to them still wanting a piece of the tax action, than any ethical concerns. Original document: https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/taxation/international-standards-for-automatic-exchange-of-information-in-tax-matters_6cb9f288-en https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/taxation/international-standar...
adolph 3y ago
What is the mechanism for “crypto assets to avoid tax?”
- e12e 3y ago
  Get paid in crypto, don't tell the government? Don't collect/pay VAT nor tax on profits? Ed: or as a contractor/consultant - don't pay social security nor income tax?
  - adolph 3y ago
    I don't see how "cypto asset" are different from any other kind of payment. For example, if you are an employer and you pay in crypto, do your reporting requirements suddenly evaporate simply because the method is not a check?
    - e12e 3y ago
      No, it's illegal - it's just less visible (wage theft/tax evasion is also easier with cash only businesses). Transactions don't go through regulated banks, with reporting requirements, for example.
- csomar 3y ago
  Except for people who profited from the rise and cashed their profits on a foreign land, nope, crypto is not really good to avoid taxes. That and you eventually need to bridge with the traditional monetary system and suddenly crypto is worse than most alternatives out there. The thing is, crypto exchanges somehow are not banks and thus are not "technically" subject to CRS. This is kind of a CRS for crypto exchanges. In reality, these laws are made to control money flows and not to improve taxation (the big corporations still avoid taxes and rich people still use expensive lawyers to nullify their tax bill). This will make the business environment for the average person worse. Which, surprise, might push people to actually use crypto as a medium of value transfer instead of speculation. Just hang in there and watch.
  - adolph 3y ago
TedDoesntTalk 3y ago
The article has little info about what actually was agreed upon. All it says is these countries will share info. Blockchains are already public. So what will they be sharing?
- ljf 3y ago
  Basically that due diligence is required on crypto purchases and sales: https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/d97fd445-en/index.html?itemId=/content/component/d97fd445-en https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/d97fd445-en/index.html?i...
churchill 3y ago
Now do "international convention to spend tax revenues more prudently."
- not_really 3y ago
  This. Never going to happen though
  - amanaplanacanal 3y ago
    You would never even get agreement on what more prudently means.
    - ljf 3y ago
      This - to me prudently is something like prioritising: health care, infrastructure, social security, education, defence and policing. I know that many people (even just across the UK), would either disagree with this list, or with the various % that should be attributed to each. One persons 'prudent' would be another persons too much/little etc.
      - pjc50 3y ago
        That looks remarkably like the current UK spending allocation. But the detail matters.
        ljf 3y ago
        Indeed, lots of people on both sides of the divide think that the current spending is wrong, and I would assume many from around the world wouldn't consider our priorities 'prudent'
      - em500 3y ago
        This is the current expenditure distribution: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/image_data/file/178810/CCS0121882386-001_Chart_B2-01.svg https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... By far the largest categories are Social protection and Health, followed by Education, Debt interest and Defense. I guess you want to increase infrastructure spending. So the question is, what are you going to deprioritize? Source: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/spring-budget-2023/spring-budget-2023-html#annex-b-public-sector-receipts-and-spending https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/spring-budget-202...
noodlesUK 3y ago
I’m not a crypto person, but I have always been curious - how does the tax situation actually work if you don’t want to commit tax evasion? I know that on US tax returns you need to tick a box if you’ve transacted in crypto, and you have to pay tax on the realized gains/losses. How do you actually go about doing that accounting practically given the volatility and the number of transactions? Are there special pieces of software that handle those calculations? Do they differ between jurisdictions (other countries particularly)? I know the real cynical answer is that most people just don’t report correctly, but I’m curious how you’d do it if you wanted to be legit.
- roenxi 3y ago
  You'd value the assets at the time of the transaction using reasonable and publicly known exchange rates to fiat. Same process as bartering in any asset.
- Roark66 3y ago
  In Poland there is no checkbox on a tax forms to say "you've dealt with crypto", but every transaction over 10K EUR is reported to the gov, and when I was a UK tax resident with a Polish bank account my Polish bank asked for my UK tax info to send the details of any such transactions to HMRC in the UK. I suspect it's an EU wide thing. I'm not sure why these 48 countries single out crypto assets like this. You can evade taxes by buying gold, heck, there were schemes that bought tons of steel, mobile phones, anything of value. To me it all seems like just pandering to "crypto=bad" crowd.
  - ljf 3y ago
    All this really is is forcing any company that buys and sells crypto in this locations to do KYC/due diligence and share details with the relevant authorities. Unless you are buying privately, you've had to do the same with any serious amount of gold trading too.
  - rtkwe 3y ago
    Crypto being digital and weightless makes it much easier to hide and move around vs several tonnes of steel or mobile phones.
suziemanul 3y ago
As for the stable coins, the researchers from the University of Chicago claim that their stability is a bit more nuanced. Especially, even a stable coin cannot defend against a run https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4226027 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4226027
- hiq 3y ago
  This doesn't seem to encompass stablecoins that are fully-collateralized, as many claim to be (which is disputable in a lot of cases). Getting money from users for a token on which you pay no interest and getting the full interest yourself does seem like a good business, it's just not one that would attract customers that have better options.
  - rtkwe 3y ago
    I'm still shocked Tether survived the whole saga of their collateralization being questioned.
- keep_reading 3y ago
  LUSD is the most stable stablecoin but very few people use it https://www.liquity.org https://www.liquity.org
tyingq 3y ago
Perhaps coincidental, but interesting timing given the role crypto plays in getting money into Gaza. It's purportedly a small part of funding that goes in, but maybe one of few left in the current situation.
- ljf 3y ago
  I'm intrigued as to the actual mechanisms of this, especially currently. How does a person (or organisation) in Gaza turn crypto into cash or goods - given the controls that exist in everything that comes into or out of Gaza.
  - injeolmi_love 3y ago
    The price of crypto isn’t the same in every jurisdiction due to restrictions on capital flows. If the price of crypto is lower in a jurisdiction, then crypto generating activities such as mining or freelancing become more profitable. If the price is higher inside the jurisdiction, then smugglers are incentivized to sell goods for crypto. These activities will find a balance within the jurisdiction. I don’t know enough about the Gaza crypto market to know which state it’s in. But generally, if people are desperate they will try to earn crypto online, and if smugglers can’t get cash out they’ll prefer crypto.
    - phone8675309 3y ago
      Ah yes, the crypto miners in Gaza where not even hospitals can get a steady supply of fuel and electricity. Crypto nerds are completely detached from reality.
      - petertodd 3y ago
        While I mostly agree with you, note that Gaza does have an large amount of rooftop solar, which theoretically could be used to mine crypto. Mining Bitcoin with expensive imported fuel doesn't make much sense. Anyway, far more money is sent to Gaza, and Hamas, in the form of Western aid from governments. Stopping the flow and misuse of that money is far more important than crypto.
fwungy 3y ago
FX is the largest market in the world. It's about 30x global GDP. If BTC can take 1% of the FX market its value would be $1.5M, each. As the price of btc rises it becomes less volatile, which makes it more attractive for large transactions. Btc transactions settle without active third party involvement or approval. Btc, in particular, should be very attractive for International settlements in the future. That's why the OECD wants a piece.
- I_Am_Nous 3y ago
  Isn't this what XRP was intended for?
  - fwungy 3y ago
    Yeah, it's the big banks competitor. For parties who are wary of dealing with the Western big banking cartel, i.e. BRICS, they're not going to like XRP.
seydor 3y ago
Nice move. I 'm sure they will crack down on using shell companies to avoid tax as well. OECD is a cartel and increasingly acts like it the past 5 years (global tax rates , seriously)
peltier 3y ago
Just hope this "crackdown" does not stop the revolution which is happening in less than honest regimes. Its allowed people a store of currency which cannot be infringed, its more valuable than the scams and volatility that plague it. Absque argento omnia vana
jcfrei 3y ago
In the grand scheme of tax avoidance crypto must be nothing but a blip. Look at the size of the art market, car collections, yachts, villas, etc. There's a huge amount of work left to do if you want to get serious about tax avoidance before you even need to work on crypto. You'll know when there's something serious being done about tax avoidance - when an actual kerfuffle breaks out in parliament.
_pc3z 3y ago
I'd like to see them try to crack down on Monero.
- rchaud 3y ago
  May as well try to goad virus makers to target MacOS. They probably could but it wouldn't be worth the hassle as so few computers would be affected, relative to the global desktop market.
robbywashere_ 3y ago
crypto is worthless and has no utility because I think so! Also let’s regulate it, this worthless useless thing that is going to zero any time now…
1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago
"Cryptocurrency has proven a disappointing alternative to fiat currency, a poor alternative to conventional securities, and a lousy store of value. But it has helped plenty of people to launder money and avoid taxes."

107 points by ljf 3y ago

> ... and a lousy store of value I expect this to be true eventually, but so far Bitcoin has been doing OK as a store of value. Unless people bought in the relatively short peaks, HODLers aren't losing crazy amount of money and one could reasonably anticipate that it'll reach $60k/bitcoin again in the near future. There seem to be people convinced that the crypto types are coming out a long way behind but I'm not really seeing it in the prices. It isn't as stable as the gold market, but it is easy to draw loose comparisons and acquiring/storing crypto is a lot more normal-person-friendly. It also looks like a strong bet in politically uncertain situations; if there is one asset I'd want when fleeing a country it'd be crypto.

CJefferson 3y ago
"crypto types" isn't just bitcoin, and most crypto currencies, and most NFTs have crashed to basically zero. You are right that bitcoin, and a couple of others, are staying strong.
- roenxi 3y ago
  The effect though, by natural flows, is the things are collapsing are almost automatically the fringe plays. At worst, soon forgotten. Something similar happens in the stock market, the winners are so large and win so hard that the losers are almost irrelevant. All the crypto I own are behaving with downright steady prices. It has been a boring ride for me so far. The risk of me losing large value quickly seems to have more to do with my questionable key-keeping practices than the market.
- j_maffe 3y ago
  > most crypto currencies, and most NFTs have crashed to basically zero. That's just plain untrue.
ljf 3y ago
I was talking to a very pro-crypto friend - part of my (sour grapes) issue with Bitcoin is that is actually a pretty impractical way to purchase items day to day - but he pointed out that this is more of a feature than a bug. He likened it to buying and selling physical gold as a store of value, I hadn't thought of it that way before. I am still stinging from not buying in when I first became aware of it (approx. $1 at the time) - but I honestly could have bought in at any point of the last 10 years (except the highs of 2021) and still come out in profit.
- lawn 3y ago
  There's a large amount of copium regarding this. In no way is it a feature that Bitcoin transactions are expensive. At best it's a negative that that's acceptable given the other benefits.
- Analemma_ 3y ago
  > but he pointed out that this is more of a feature than a bug -- he likened it to buying and selling physical gold as a store of value This is a lot of cope and ex post facto justification. "Store of value which can't actually be used for real-world transactions" was absolutely not the rallying cry for Bitcoin for its first many years of existence, and people only pivoted to that when it became undeniable that Bitcoin was not fit for its original intended purpose. If it serves the new purpose well enough, then great, but don't let your friend fool you that everything is going completely according to plan.
  - throw0101c 3y ago
    > This is a lot of cope and ex post facto justification. First sentence of the original paper: > Abstract. A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution. […] * https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
  - petertodd 3y ago
    > and people only pivoted to that when it became undeniable that Bitcoin was not fit for its original intended purpose. These days it is likely(1) that the majority of Bitcoin transactions by number(2) are being done via the layer 2 system Lightning, which does have nearly instant payments and low fees. Transactions via Lightning are not recorded on the blockchain, even though you can easily hold funds in a non-custodial way. I happen to be in El Salvador at the moment, and with the exception of the Chivo Bitcoin ATMs run by the government, every single vendor selling things for Bitcoin has accepted Lightning. 1) It's hard to know for sure, as Lightning transactions have quite good privacy, so it's difficult to get estimates of how many there are in total. But decent lower-bound estimates exist: https://bitcoinmagazine.com/markets/lightning-network-sees-record-adoption-amidst-new-applications https://bitcoinmagazine.com/markets/lightning-network-sees-r... 2) Of course, by value it's very likely that on-chain transactions dominate, as there are lots of very high value, multi-million+, transactions out there.
fdkjhasdf 3y ago
> ...Unless people bought in the relatively short peaks... That's a bit minimalistic, no? The "short peak" of $50-60k (around 50-100% more than the current value) lasted something like 6 months AFAIK? To be a store of value, you would hope those fluctuations would be nonexistant. Store of value should be for everyone, not just the unlucky ones...
this_user 3y ago
> but so far Bitcoin has been doing OK as a store of value No, it hasn't. A store of value is supposed to be stable, it's about volatility. By that same reasoning you could argue that Apple or Tesla stock, or even the stock market in general, is a great store of value. But nobody would ever call it that, because it is far too volatile on a daily basis. Trying to argue that a vague long-term uptrend in prices makes something a store of value is just more intellectually dishonest cope by cryptobros who are desperate to defend this useless technology.
- seydor 3y ago
  Volatile compared to what? Dollars. The us government is able to steer dollar as it likes but that comes with violence, it's not "naturally" stable
- josu 3y ago
  >a vague long-term uptrend in prices makes something a store of value A stable and 100% predetermined issuance schedule, along with its scarcity, it's what makes Bitcoin a good store of value. The steady uptrend in prices is the consequence. >useless technology. Just because it's functionality is limited it doesn't make it useless. A store of value that doesn't require boring the planet, or building empty houses, seems like a great improvement to me. I think that you are conflating the cryptobro culture, with the true value that Bitcoin brings to the table.
  - skulk 3y ago
    > A store of value that doesn't require boring the planet, or building empty houses, seems like a great improvement to me. Boring holes isn't tenable but using 15 GW of power is acceptable?
    - siftrics 3y ago
      Energy will continue to get cheaper and less scarce over the long term. This is a bad argument.
    - josu 3y ago
Geee 3y ago
People confuse a lot of things about volatility, risk, and long term valuation. Bitcoin is an inherently good long term store of value, because it has deterministic and finite inflation schedule, which is also plausibly immutable (contrary to fiat cryptocurrencies, called "cryptos"). On the other hand, fiat currencies are a lousy store of value, because they have non-deterministic, but always positive inflation schedule, i.e. they are guaranteed to lose value in the long term. These are just objective facts about their inherent properties. In addition, Bitcoin includes cryptographic property protection, making it a better store of value in jurisdictions where local authorities won't provide property protection, or the cost of property protection is high. For example, in many countries, it's illegal to own US dollars. Bitcoin is easier to hide and use discreetly, compared to anything physical. Volatility is a property of the market, not a property of the asset. All things considered, bitcoin should get less and less volatile when time goes on, assuming that it continues gaining adoption. Which is given, as it doesn't have any competition.
- siftrics 3y ago
  > contrary to fiat cryptocurrencies, called "cryptos" This is wrong. No one says this.
  - tnel77 3y ago
    It’s pretty common in the Bitcoin community.
- theorytheory22 3y ago
  You're missing the forest through the trees. Bitcoin doesn't have value beyond what can be converted into real currency. Real currency is used to buy things. BTC isn't. The currency-BTC market IS the entire value of Bitcoin. None of the other stuff matters, because BTC is solely denominated in actual currencies. BTC is non-inflationary? Doesn't matter. You only use it to buy USD or actual currencies. If there's less demand for BTC, BTC value goes down. And guess what? Demand is fickle. The cyrptographic property protection is ok in theory. But try and point out somebody it's helped? And by that I mean a non-criminal/extortionist/money launderer.

ljf 3y ago

Think it is interesting that (British linked) tax havens have signed up to this too - but I guess this is more down to them still wanting a piece of the tax action, than any ethical concerns. Original document: https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/taxation/international-standards-for-automatic-exchange-of-information-in-tax-matters_6cb9f288-en https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/taxation/international-standar...

adolph 3y ago

What is the mechanism for “crypto assets to avoid tax?”

e12e 3y ago
Get paid in crypto, don't tell the government? Don't collect/pay VAT nor tax on profits? Ed: or as a contractor/consultant - don't pay social security nor income tax?
- adolph 3y ago
  I don't see how "cypto asset" are different from any other kind of payment. For example, if you are an employer and you pay in crypto, do your reporting requirements suddenly evaporate simply because the method is not a check?
  - e12e 3y ago
    No, it's illegal - it's just less visible (wage theft/tax evasion is also easier with cash only businesses). Transactions don't go through regulated banks, with reporting requirements, for example.
csomar 3y ago
Except for people who profited from the rise and cashed their profits on a foreign land, nope, crypto is not really good to avoid taxes. That and you eventually need to bridge with the traditional monetary system and suddenly crypto is worse than most alternatives out there. The thing is, crypto exchanges somehow are not banks and thus are not "technically" subject to CRS. This is kind of a CRS for crypto exchanges. In reality, these laws are made to control money flows and not to improve taxation (the big corporations still avoid taxes and rich people still use expensive lawyers to nullify their tax bill). This will make the business environment for the average person worse. Which, surprise, might push people to actually use crypto as a medium of value transfer instead of speculation. Just hang in there and watch.
- adolph 3y ago

TedDoesntTalk 3y ago

The article has little info about what actually was agreed upon. All it says is these countries will share info. Blockchains are already public. So what will they be sharing?

ljf 3y ago
Basically that due diligence is required on crypto purchases and sales: https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/d97fd445-en/index.html?itemId=/content/component/d97fd445-en https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/d97fd445-en/index.html?i...

churchill 3y ago

Now do "international convention to spend tax revenues more prudently."

not_really 3y ago
This. Never going to happen though
- amanaplanacanal 3y ago
  You would never even get agreement on what more prudently means.
  - ljf 3y ago
    This - to me prudently is something like prioritising: health care, infrastructure, social security, education, defence and policing. I know that many people (even just across the UK), would either disagree with this list, or with the various % that should be attributed to each. One persons 'prudent' would be another persons too much/little etc.
    - pjc50 3y ago
      That looks remarkably like the current UK spending allocation. But the detail matters.
      - ljf 3y ago
        Indeed, lots of people on both sides of the divide think that the current spending is wrong, and I would assume many from around the world wouldn't consider our priorities 'prudent'
    - em500 3y ago
      This is the current expenditure distribution: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/image_data/file/178810/CCS0121882386-001_Chart_B2-01.svg https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... By far the largest categories are Social protection and Health, followed by Education, Debt interest and Defense. I guess you want to increase infrastructure spending. So the question is, what are you going to deprioritize? Source: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/spring-budget-2023/spring-budget-2023-html#annex-b-public-sector-receipts-and-spending https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/spring-budget-202...

noodlesUK 3y ago

I’m not a crypto person, but I have always been curious - how does the tax situation actually work if you don’t want to commit tax evasion? I know that on US tax returns you need to tick a box if you’ve transacted in crypto, and you have to pay tax on the realized gains/losses. How do you actually go about doing that accounting practically given the volatility and the number of transactions? Are there special pieces of software that handle those calculations? Do they differ between jurisdictions (other countries particularly)? I know the real cynical answer is that most people just don’t report correctly, but I’m curious how you’d do it if you wanted to be legit.

roenxi 3y ago
You'd value the assets at the time of the transaction using reasonable and publicly known exchange rates to fiat. Same process as bartering in any asset.
Roark66 3y ago
In Poland there is no checkbox on a tax forms to say "you've dealt with crypto", but every transaction over 10K EUR is reported to the gov, and when I was a UK tax resident with a Polish bank account my Polish bank asked for my UK tax info to send the details of any such transactions to HMRC in the UK. I suspect it's an EU wide thing. I'm not sure why these 48 countries single out crypto assets like this. You can evade taxes by buying gold, heck, there were schemes that bought tons of steel, mobile phones, anything of value. To me it all seems like just pandering to "crypto=bad" crowd.
- ljf 3y ago
  All this really is is forcing any company that buys and sells crypto in this locations to do KYC/due diligence and share details with the relevant authorities. Unless you are buying privately, you've had to do the same with any serious amount of gold trading too.
- rtkwe 3y ago
  Crypto being digital and weightless makes it much easier to hide and move around vs several tonnes of steel or mobile phones.

suziemanul 3y ago

As for the stable coins, the researchers from the University of Chicago claim that their stability is a bit more nuanced. Especially, even a stable coin cannot defend against a run https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4226027 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4226027

hiq 3y ago
This doesn't seem to encompass stablecoins that are fully-collateralized, as many claim to be (which is disputable in a lot of cases). Getting money from users for a token on which you pay no interest and getting the full interest yourself does seem like a good business, it's just not one that would attract customers that have better options.
- rtkwe 3y ago
  I'm still shocked Tether survived the whole saga of their collateralization being questioned.
keep_reading 3y ago
LUSD is the most stable stablecoin but very few people use it https://www.liquity.org https://www.liquity.org

tyingq 3y ago

Perhaps coincidental, but interesting timing given the role crypto plays in getting money into Gaza. It's purportedly a small part of funding that goes in, but maybe one of few left in the current situation.

ljf 3y ago
I'm intrigued as to the actual mechanisms of this, especially currently. How does a person (or organisation) in Gaza turn crypto into cash or goods - given the controls that exist in everything that comes into or out of Gaza.
- injeolmi_love 3y ago
  The price of crypto isn’t the same in every jurisdiction due to restrictions on capital flows. If the price of crypto is lower in a jurisdiction, then crypto generating activities such as mining or freelancing become more profitable. If the price is higher inside the jurisdiction, then smugglers are incentivized to sell goods for crypto. These activities will find a balance within the jurisdiction. I don’t know enough about the Gaza crypto market to know which state it’s in. But generally, if people are desperate they will try to earn crypto online, and if smugglers can’t get cash out they’ll prefer crypto.
  - phone8675309 3y ago
    Ah yes, the crypto miners in Gaza where not even hospitals can get a steady supply of fuel and electricity. Crypto nerds are completely detached from reality.
    - petertodd 3y ago
      While I mostly agree with you, note that Gaza does have an large amount of rooftop solar, which theoretically could be used to mine crypto. Mining Bitcoin with expensive imported fuel doesn't make much sense. Anyway, far more money is sent to Gaza, and Hamas, in the form of Western aid from governments. Stopping the flow and misuse of that money is far more important than crypto.

fwungy 3y ago

FX is the largest market in the world. It's about 30x global GDP. If BTC can take 1% of the FX market its value would be $1.5M, each. As the price of btc rises it becomes less volatile, which makes it more attractive for large transactions. Btc transactions settle without active third party involvement or approval. Btc, in particular, should be very attractive for International settlements in the future. That's why the OECD wants a piece.

I_Am_Nous 3y ago
Isn't this what XRP was intended for?
- fwungy 3y ago
  Yeah, it's the big banks competitor. For parties who are wary of dealing with the Western big banking cartel, i.e. BRICS, they're not going to like XRP.

seydor 3y ago

Nice move. I 'm sure they will crack down on using shell companies to avoid tax as well. OECD is a cartel and increasingly acts like it the past 5 years (global tax rates , seriously)

peltier 3y ago

Just hope this "crackdown" does not stop the revolution which is happening in less than honest regimes. Its allowed people a store of currency which cannot be infringed, its more valuable than the scams and volatility that plague it. Absque argento omnia vana

jcfrei 3y ago

In the grand scheme of tax avoidance crypto must be nothing but a blip. Look at the size of the art market, car collections, yachts, villas, etc. There's a huge amount of work left to do if you want to get serious about tax avoidance before you even need to work on crypto. You'll know when there's something serious being done about tax avoidance - when an actual kerfuffle breaks out in parliament.

_pc3z 3y ago

I'd like to see them try to crack down on Monero.

rchaud 3y ago
May as well try to goad virus makers to target MacOS. They probably could but it wouldn't be worth the hassle as so few computers would be affected, relative to the global desktop market.

robbywashere_ 3y ago

crypto is worthless and has no utility because I think so! Also let’s regulate it, this worthless useless thing that is going to zero any time now…

1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago

"Cryptocurrency has proven a disappointing alternative to fiat currency, a poor alternative to conventional securities, and a lousy store of value. But it has helped plenty of people to launder money and avoid taxes."