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I'm not against a TikTok ban. It is essentially a slot machine. And it is explicitly designed like one. My problem with this is that it is this design which sh

I'm not against a TikTok ban. It is essentially a slot machine. And it is explicitly designed like one. My problem with this is that it is this design which should be illegal, not one app or another. Instagram and Facebook feeds aren't any better than TikTok.

dan-robertson 3y ago
What does ‘better’ mean here? Eg TikTok is better at personalising recommendations where facebook tends to give more generic content, so TikTok may better give people what they want but also be more addictive/have a stronger filter-bubble effect.
- andai 3y ago
  There's one TikTok for me, and one TikTok for thee. The Chinese version promotes educational videos, and has a strict daily time limit. The "export" version is literally designed to make you retarded. Agree that other apps aren't much better though (especially now that they've redesigned themselves after TikTok's model...)
  - wruza 3y ago
    Why banning it then? Don’t US/EU have power to force educational content and time limits? This “oh, all feeds are bad, we should think of maybe banning them all” will lead nowhere 100% of times. Feels like China absolutely doesn’t even have to do anything bad because the US don’t know what they want.
    - edgyquant 3y ago
      >why banning it then? Because it’s the most logical thing to do and not doing so is a national security nightmare
  - mistermann 3y ago
    > The "export" version is literally designed to make you retarded. Then why does it have so much philosophy content that can reveal the naivete of the many comments like this one reads about "TikTok"?
  - cramjabsyn 3y ago
    There is a setting to enable the STEM feed in the export version. Try not to be an ableist.
    - andai 3y ago
      You can call it "induce cognitive impairment" if you prefer, but it doesn't change what it is. The mere presence of a smartphone reduces basal attentional performance: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-36256-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-36256-4 If calling it what it is helps encourage people to stop doing it to themselves (we are after all emotion-first, rationalization-later!)... then your taking offense on my behalf (for the record, I do have brain damage) will have been an acceptable cost.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
  - lossolo 3y ago
    Why can't we restrict TikTok to the same content only in the west? It's just a matter of regulation, we know it's possible because it's how it's done in China. Now think about it, is it really China here to blame for our regulations?
- rTX5CMRXIfFG 3y ago
  Better in terms of the grounds Tiktok was banned
wruza 3y ago
I’m regularly visiting an old-school “scroll images and gifs and post comments” site which moderates a large tree of tags so one can block them and create a highly personalized filter-bubble without an expensive algorithm. Should this be illegal too? I’m not against TikTok ban because it’s a degenerate format and content. (Main reasons are short videos, no video controls, autorepeat) It’s ADHD plus repetitive voices in your head on top of the usual internet asylum. But what’s the exact criteria for any feed? - ones you cannot control (manipulation and propaganda) - addictiveness and personalization (attention grabbing) - bigcorps only (monetary interest converges to p.1) ?
- UltimateEdge 3y ago
  Could you name the site you are talking about? One observation I have made about sites with a list of images/videos to view is that it is sometimes easy to succumb to visiting the site only to look at 'mindless' media (memes, sexually suggestive material, etc). At least for me, this seems to be the case no matter the ranking algorithm or user interface (no infinite scroll, etc) used by the site. I have not found Hacker News to be this way. It is both easier to stop scrolling, and I have to exert at least some mental effort to read the news links and comments.
  - wruza 3y ago
    Not a comfortable disclosure, but it matches your observation. That’s what I expect from a pics and gifs site. Tags allow me to filter out material I find repulsive or boring (specific comic authors, topics, memes, “big …”, onlyfans bs, politics). Serious sites don’t do tag filters, they are either non-profit or all business with ads and tracking. I’d filter 98% of the internet if I could.
_the_inflator 3y ago
I always thought HN is a slot machine. TikTok is HN on steroids. I uninstalled it years ago from all my devices. I stick to the drug that I think I can control.
beAbU 3y ago
Do you mind explaining what you mean by "slot machine" in this context? I'm not a TikTok user, but I'm sometimes on Facebook and other "feed" sites, and I don't fully grasp how gambling comes in to play.
- jocaal 3y ago
  it's not about gambling. The dopamine rewards you get from the two are similar.
- jocaal 3y ago
  The dopamine rewards you get from the two are similar.
- GartzenDeHaes 3y ago
  No one said anything about gambling.
- ohdannyboy 3y ago
  The scientific term is Variable Rate Operant Conditioning. It's where you press a button, have some chance of a reward (winning money or seeing a video you like) and can immediately play again. It's the same mechanism. From rats on up to humans this is known to be an extremely addictive behavioral pattern. Social media like Tik Tok can perfectly balance how much reward to give you to keep you engaged while filing the non-reward results with ads and other messaging they want you thinking about.
  - _Algernon_ 3y ago
    I mean even HN employs that pattern (though not necessarily intentionally). Whenever you refresh the page you have a random reward in the form of gain/loss of karma or comment replies. Should we ban HN?
    - ohdannyboy 3y ago
      It's pretty disingenuous to act like the two are similar. I also never weighed in on whether governments should ban such things or not.
j0ba 3y ago
The nice thing about Tiktok is we can totally trust the CCP to show brainwashing content to the children of foreign adversaries. China banned Instagram et. al. because they're not stupid. They don't want foreign influence on their children. US politicians are both corrupt and stupid.
- kvgr 3y ago
  This, china has access to "weights" that push content to people and pushes some content to background.
- thesuitonym 3y ago
  Why do you think Tiktok is brainwashing children (why is it always children?) and Facebook, Twitter, etc aren't? Why do you think Tiktok is the only vector for foreign influence, when it's been documented many, many times that domestic social media sites are rife with foreign misinformation? What do you think Tiktok will do? Destabilize the US? Our politicians are already doing that. No need to worry about a boogyman from the other side of the globe. It's just a distraction.
  - Ialdaboth 3y ago
    On the long term, anthropological warfare is a clever idea... but it's probably a little too optimistic to think you can implement with just one app. The CCP/tiktok hysteria feels overblown to me - public education is what constituents should feel concerned about.
    - toasted-subs 3y ago
      Says a person who hasn't had to deal with direct harassment by these organizations. In my opinion these apps should be banned immediately.
      - flkenosad 3y ago
        You think they should ban HN too? Or twitter?
huytersd 3y ago
I’d trust an American publicly traded company over an arm of the CCP any day.
- autoexec 3y ago
  I don't see why you'd trust either of them. They're both entirely self-serving and perfectly willing to hurt you in any way they can if they think it might further their own goals
penjelly 3y ago
one significant difference is, tiktok forces you directly into the spotlight/reels/tiktoks section immediately upon opening the app. With youtube, you must elect to choose a short even tho they appear on homescreen, with ig reels your sorta coerced into it because most videos are reels and once you hit one, youre in. For snapchat you must elect to open to spotlight page. I think all pf these are less predatory than tiktoks approach, snapchat being the least predatory right now
manonthewall 3y ago
Do you propose the government shutting down all social media because you don't like them? What is your precise solution if not. Is this the job of the government, to limit speech that you don't like or don't like how it's presented?

dan-robertson 3y ago

What does ‘better’ mean here? Eg TikTok is better at personalising recommendations where facebook tends to give more generic content, so TikTok may better give people what they want but also be more addictive/have a stronger filter-bubble effect.

andai 3y ago
There's one TikTok for me, and one TikTok for thee. The Chinese version promotes educational videos, and has a strict daily time limit. The "export" version is literally designed to make you retarded. Agree that other apps aren't much better though (especially now that they've redesigned themselves after TikTok's model...)
- wruza 3y ago
  Why banning it then? Don’t US/EU have power to force educational content and time limits? This “oh, all feeds are bad, we should think of maybe banning them all” will lead nowhere 100% of times. Feels like China absolutely doesn’t even have to do anything bad because the US don’t know what they want.
  - edgyquant 3y ago
    >why banning it then? Because it’s the most logical thing to do and not doing so is a national security nightmare
- mistermann 3y ago
  > The "export" version is literally designed to make you retarded. Then why does it have so much philosophy content that can reveal the naivete of the many comments like this one reads about "TikTok"?
- cramjabsyn 3y ago
  There is a setting to enable the STEM feed in the export version. Try not to be an ableist.
  - andai 3y ago
    You can call it "induce cognitive impairment" if you prefer, but it doesn't change what it is. The mere presence of a smartphone reduces basal attentional performance: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-36256-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-36256-4 If calling it what it is helps encourage people to stop doing it to themselves (we are after all emotion-first, rationalization-later!)... then your taking offense on my behalf (for the record, I do have brain damage) will have been an acceptable cost.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- lossolo 3y ago
  Why can't we restrict TikTok to the same content only in the west? It's just a matter of regulation, we know it's possible because it's how it's done in China. Now think about it, is it really China here to blame for our regulations?
rTX5CMRXIfFG 3y ago
Better in terms of the grounds Tiktok was banned

wruza 3y ago

I’m regularly visiting an old-school “scroll images and gifs and post comments” site which moderates a large tree of tags so one can block them and create a highly personalized filter-bubble without an expensive algorithm. Should this be illegal too? I’m not against TikTok ban because it’s a degenerate format and content. (Main reasons are short videos, no video controls, autorepeat) It’s ADHD plus repetitive voices in your head on top of the usual internet asylum. But what’s the exact criteria for any feed? - ones you cannot control (manipulation and propaganda) - addictiveness and personalization (attention grabbing) - bigcorps only (monetary interest converges to p.1) ?

UltimateEdge 3y ago
Could you name the site you are talking about? One observation I have made about sites with a list of images/videos to view is that it is sometimes easy to succumb to visiting the site only to look at 'mindless' media (memes, sexually suggestive material, etc). At least for me, this seems to be the case no matter the ranking algorithm or user interface (no infinite scroll, etc) used by the site. I have not found Hacker News to be this way. It is both easier to stop scrolling, and I have to exert at least some mental effort to read the news links and comments.
- wruza 3y ago
  Not a comfortable disclosure, but it matches your observation. That’s what I expect from a pics and gifs site. Tags allow me to filter out material I find repulsive or boring (specific comic authors, topics, memes, “big …”, onlyfans bs, politics). Serious sites don’t do tag filters, they are either non-profit or all business with ads and tracking. I’d filter 98% of the internet if I could.

_the_inflator 3y ago

I always thought HN is a slot machine. TikTok is HN on steroids. I uninstalled it years ago from all my devices. I stick to the drug that I think I can control.

beAbU 3y ago

Do you mind explaining what you mean by "slot machine" in this context? I'm not a TikTok user, but I'm sometimes on Facebook and other "feed" sites, and I don't fully grasp how gambling comes in to play.

jocaal 3y ago
it's not about gambling. The dopamine rewards you get from the two are similar.
jocaal 3y ago
The dopamine rewards you get from the two are similar.
GartzenDeHaes 3y ago
No one said anything about gambling.
ohdannyboy 3y ago
The scientific term is Variable Rate Operant Conditioning. It's where you press a button, have some chance of a reward (winning money or seeing a video you like) and can immediately play again. It's the same mechanism. From rats on up to humans this is known to be an extremely addictive behavioral pattern. Social media like Tik Tok can perfectly balance how much reward to give you to keep you engaged while filing the non-reward results with ads and other messaging they want you thinking about.
- _Algernon_ 3y ago
  I mean even HN employs that pattern (though not necessarily intentionally). Whenever you refresh the page you have a random reward in the form of gain/loss of karma or comment replies. Should we ban HN?
  - ohdannyboy 3y ago
    It's pretty disingenuous to act like the two are similar. I also never weighed in on whether governments should ban such things or not.

j0ba 3y ago

The nice thing about Tiktok is we can totally trust the CCP to show brainwashing content to the children of foreign adversaries. China banned Instagram et. al. because they're not stupid. They don't want foreign influence on their children. US politicians are both corrupt and stupid.

kvgr 3y ago
This, china has access to "weights" that push content to people and pushes some content to background.
thesuitonym 3y ago
Why do you think Tiktok is brainwashing children (why is it always children?) and Facebook, Twitter, etc aren't? Why do you think Tiktok is the only vector for foreign influence, when it's been documented many, many times that domestic social media sites are rife with foreign misinformation? What do you think Tiktok will do? Destabilize the US? Our politicians are already doing that. No need to worry about a boogyman from the other side of the globe. It's just a distraction.
- Ialdaboth 3y ago
  On the long term, anthropological warfare is a clever idea... but it's probably a little too optimistic to think you can implement with just one app. The CCP/tiktok hysteria feels overblown to me - public education is what constituents should feel concerned about.
  - toasted-subs 3y ago
    Says a person who hasn't had to deal with direct harassment by these organizations. In my opinion these apps should be banned immediately.
    - flkenosad 3y ago
      You think they should ban HN too? Or twitter?

huytersd 3y ago

I’d trust an American publicly traded company over an arm of the CCP any day.

autoexec 3y ago
I don't see why you'd trust either of them. They're both entirely self-serving and perfectly willing to hurt you in any way they can if they think it might further their own goals

penjelly 3y ago

one significant difference is, tiktok forces you directly into the spotlight/reels/tiktoks section immediately upon opening the app. With youtube, you must elect to choose a short even tho they appear on homescreen, with ig reels your sorta coerced into it because most videos are reels and once you hit one, youre in. For snapchat you must elect to open to spotlight page. I think all pf these are less predatory than tiktoks approach, snapchat being the least predatory right now

manonthewall 3y ago

Do you propose the government shutting down all social media because you don't like them? What is your precise solution if not. Is this the job of the government, to limit speech that you don't like or don't like how it's presented?