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Ive never understood why TikTok is allowed to run their app in the West whilst China blocks all foreign apps within its own borders. How is this not a simple tr

Ive never understood why TikTok is allowed to run their app in the West whilst China blocks all foreign apps within its own borders. How is this not a simple trade issue?

TotoHorner 3y ago
The user-base on TikTok (in the US at least) leans extremely left (because they're all young) so the news media has idiotically made this a left vs. right issue. Yes, any neutral observer can see that it's incredibly foolish to let a company with strong connections to our largest geopolitical rival have control over 1-2 hours of attention (every day) of young people in the US. We literally have no idea if TikTok is boosting certain political/social values amongst American youth. Even a slight nudge could have a huge effects (because of the scale at which TikTok operates) and it would be impossible to detect. The idea that there's some "iron wall" between US and Chinese data has already been proven false. US user data has repeatedly been accessed from china - https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/emilybakerwhite/tiktok-tapes-us-user-data-china-bytedance-access https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/emilybakerwhite/tiktok-.... "I feel like with these tools, there’s some backdoor to access user data in almost all of them,” said an external auditor hired to help TikTok close off Chinese access to sensitive information, like Americans’ birthdays and phone numbers."
jowea 3y ago
Good question now that I think about it. I guess because it was not a real issue until now because there was no Chinese app popular outside its borders? And the whole app/internet economy is still somewhat new compared to the speed at which international trade law gets written I guess, so there are no established rules. The EU has just started enforcing their opinion on it with some recent laws, and the US started doing something about TikTok under Trump.
pjc50 3y ago
The West was trying to get China to open its markets, which required opening ours first and reciprocally. Because we can't just force them to buy opium at gunpoint any more.
- lazyeye 3y ago
  Ok so that hasn't happened and is clearly not going to happen. Now what?
krapp 3y ago
Tiktok is "allowed" to run their app in the West because we have freedom of speech and expression. At least for now.
- lazyeye 3y ago
  Allowing an authoritarian regime access to manipulate opinion on a massive scale does not increase freedom of speech.
  - krapp 3y ago
    Freedom of speech exists to defend the speech you don't agree with, not the speech you do.
    - lazyeye 3y ago
      Its ridiculously niave to equate the manipulation of opinion by an authoritarian regime as "free speech". You are not a serious person.
      - krapp 3y ago
        Of course it's free speech. Manipulative speech is free speech. Dangerous speech is free speech. This has been supported by the US Supreme court, it isn't even controversial. You're the unserious one here, you're acting on emotion and not reason. I don't even know what "manipulation of opinion by an authoritarian regime" you're referring to, as TikTok is nothing but memes and nonsense, but it's axiomatic around here that free speech means we must allow speech from all sources, and that manipulation of opinion is fair game. That people may be sensitive and easily led astray by falsehood is not an excuse for censorship. They must simply find a way to verify the claims made for themselves. We must simply adapt to this new world order. And besides, the answer to "bad" speech is more speech, is it not? I'm simply saying we should apply the same full throated defense of free speech to the psyops of authoritarian regimes as we do neo-nazis and quacks and "journalists" who want to harass trangendered people to suicide. It's only fair, given that social media is already suffused with American government and corporate propaganda anyway. How can we host proper debates without hearing all sides? Sunlight is the best disinfectant. "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - not actually Voltaire
0xDEAFBEAD 3y ago
It's hard for the US to ban TikTok without violating the 1st Amendment. My solution is: Until China opens up to foreign apps, the FTC should tell Google and Apple that they won't take any antitrust action if Google and Apple replace Tiktok with alternative apps (like Youtube Shorts) in their app stores. Then let Google and Apple do what they want to do already. No need for any heavy-handed government action which could violate the 1st Amendment. I strongly favor a peaceful relationship with China, but peace is best achieved through reciprocity. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"
- spacebanana7 3y ago
  Encouraging TikTok to IPO in the west may be another option. Or even in a more neutral location like Singapore. With corporate headquarters in the West and a diverse group of international shareholders a lot of the national security concerns could be addressed. In exchange, there could be sanctions / regulatory relief for Huawei, SMIC, ZTE & other Chinese tech.
  - throwaway2990 3y ago
    It wouldn’t matter. The dev office will always exist in China and always be beholden to the CCP. Love the CCP sympathizers downvoting. Can’t argue with the truth but can downvote.
spacebanana7 3y ago
At this point TikTok is impossible to ban in the west. Hundreds of millions of people love using it. If an elected official banned it, they'd create space for a political opponent to pick up vast numbers of votes by taking the other side on the issue.
- huytersd 3y ago
  People would forget in a month and move to other platforms.
  - spacebanana7 3y ago
    64% of young Americans would rather give up their right to vote than give up TikTok. Picture how upset kids get when you take away their favourite video game and apply that to a group of people dozens of times larger than the NRA. That's a lot of votes to risk. [1] https://reboot-foundation.org/research/the-tiktok-challenge-curbing-social-medias-influence-on-young-minds/ https://reboot-foundation.org/research/the-tiktok-challenge-... ++ I'd be interested to see this study replicated across the entire adult voter base with breakdowns by region etc, but I'm not aware of one.
    - huytersd 3y ago
      80% of young Americans said they planned to vote in the last election. You can draw your own conclusions from that.
andai 3y ago
Free speech means non-western nation states are free to run psychological experiments on the populations of western countries, but not the other way around.
DrThunder 3y ago
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Ive never understood why TikTok is allowed to run their app in the West whilst China blocks all foreign apps within its own borders. How is this not a simple trade issue?

TotoHorner 3y ago

The user-base on TikTok (in the US at least) leans extremely left (because they're all young) so the news media has idiotically made this a left vs. right issue. Yes, any neutral observer can see that it's incredibly foolish to let a company with strong connections to our largest geopolitical rival have control over 1-2 hours of attention (every day) of young people in the US. We literally have no idea if TikTok is boosting certain political/social values amongst American youth. Even a slight nudge could have a huge effects (because of the scale at which TikTok operates) and it would be impossible to detect. The idea that there's some "iron wall" between US and Chinese data has already been proven false. US user data has repeatedly been accessed from china - https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/emilybakerwhite/tiktok-tapes-us-user-data-china-bytedance-access https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/emilybakerwhite/tiktok-.... "I feel like with these tools, there’s some backdoor to access user data in almost all of them,” said an external auditor hired to help TikTok close off Chinese access to sensitive information, like Americans’ birthdays and phone numbers."

jowea 3y ago

Good question now that I think about it. I guess because it was not a real issue until now because there was no Chinese app popular outside its borders? And the whole app/internet economy is still somewhat new compared to the speed at which international trade law gets written I guess, so there are no established rules. The EU has just started enforcing their opinion on it with some recent laws, and the US started doing something about TikTok under Trump.

pjc50 3y ago

The West was trying to get China to open its markets, which required opening ours first and reciprocally. Because we can't just force them to buy opium at gunpoint any more.

lazyeye 3y ago
Ok so that hasn't happened and is clearly not going to happen. Now what?

krapp 3y ago

Tiktok is "allowed" to run their app in the West because we have freedom of speech and expression. At least for now.

lazyeye 3y ago
Allowing an authoritarian regime access to manipulate opinion on a massive scale does not increase freedom of speech.
- krapp 3y ago
  Freedom of speech exists to defend the speech you don't agree with, not the speech you do.
  - lazyeye 3y ago
    Its ridiculously niave to equate the manipulation of opinion by an authoritarian regime as "free speech". You are not a serious person.
    - krapp 3y ago
      Of course it's free speech. Manipulative speech is free speech. Dangerous speech is free speech. This has been supported by the US Supreme court, it isn't even controversial. You're the unserious one here, you're acting on emotion and not reason. I don't even know what "manipulation of opinion by an authoritarian regime" you're referring to, as TikTok is nothing but memes and nonsense, but it's axiomatic around here that free speech means we must allow speech from all sources, and that manipulation of opinion is fair game. That people may be sensitive and easily led astray by falsehood is not an excuse for censorship. They must simply find a way to verify the claims made for themselves. We must simply adapt to this new world order. And besides, the answer to "bad" speech is more speech, is it not? I'm simply saying we should apply the same full throated defense of free speech to the psyops of authoritarian regimes as we do neo-nazis and quacks and "journalists" who want to harass trangendered people to suicide. It's only fair, given that social media is already suffused with American government and corporate propaganda anyway. How can we host proper debates without hearing all sides? Sunlight is the best disinfectant. "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - not actually Voltaire

0xDEAFBEAD 3y ago

It's hard for the US to ban TikTok without violating the 1st Amendment. My solution is: Until China opens up to foreign apps, the FTC should tell Google and Apple that they won't take any antitrust action if Google and Apple replace Tiktok with alternative apps (like Youtube Shorts) in their app stores. Then let Google and Apple do what they want to do already. No need for any heavy-handed government action which could violate the 1st Amendment. I strongly favor a peaceful relationship with China, but peace is best achieved through reciprocity. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

spacebanana7 3y ago
Encouraging TikTok to IPO in the west may be another option. Or even in a more neutral location like Singapore. With corporate headquarters in the West and a diverse group of international shareholders a lot of the national security concerns could be addressed. In exchange, there could be sanctions / regulatory relief for Huawei, SMIC, ZTE & other Chinese tech.
- throwaway2990 3y ago
  It wouldn’t matter. The dev office will always exist in China and always be beholden to the CCP. Love the CCP sympathizers downvoting. Can’t argue with the truth but can downvote.

spacebanana7 3y ago

At this point TikTok is impossible to ban in the west. Hundreds of millions of people love using it. If an elected official banned it, they'd create space for a political opponent to pick up vast numbers of votes by taking the other side on the issue.

huytersd 3y ago
People would forget in a month and move to other platforms.
- spacebanana7 3y ago
  64% of young Americans would rather give up their right to vote than give up TikTok. Picture how upset kids get when you take away their favourite video game and apply that to a group of people dozens of times larger than the NRA. That's a lot of votes to risk. [1] https://reboot-foundation.org/research/the-tiktok-challenge-curbing-social-medias-influence-on-young-minds/ https://reboot-foundation.org/research/the-tiktok-challenge-... ++ I'd be interested to see this study replicated across the entire adult voter base with breakdowns by region etc, but I'm not aware of one.
  - huytersd 3y ago
    80% of young Americans said they planned to vote in the last election. You can draw your own conclusions from that.

andai 3y ago

Free speech means non-western nation states are free to run psychological experiments on the populations of western countries, but not the other way around.

DrThunder 3y ago

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