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Yeah, sure, you can be arrested for anything or nothing at all. Sorry I wasn’t clear. Do you have any examples of charges and convictions on theft without a p

Yeah, sure, you can be arrested for anything or nothing at all. Sorry I wasn’t clear. Do you have any examples of charges and convictions on theft without a prior claim of deprivation to a good or service from an owner? Or are we just being pedantic?

crooked-v 3y ago
Well, sure, here's a quick example of an uncooperative victim and the state attempting (and in this case failing) to prosecute on robbery charges anyway: https://www.norwichbulletin.com/story/news/crime/2009/03/21/witnesses-stay-silent-robbery-case/64982425007/ https://www.norwichbulletin.com/story/news/crime/2009/03/21/...
- fingerlocks 3y ago
  “charges and convictions” was not an inclusive-or statement
  - ummonk 3y ago
    You claimed “In the United States you can’t be arrested and charged with theft without the owner claiming you actually stole something.” Then you shifted the goalposts to “charges and convictions”.
    - fingerlocks 3y ago
      Yes I did. Which I clarified because a pedantic ball flew over the first goal post.
      - staticman2 3y ago
        You asked "Do you have any examples of charges and convictions on theft without a prior claim of deprivation to a good or service from an owner?" The real question is do you have an example of a judge ruling that someone can't be charged and convicted on theft without a prior claim of deprivation to a good and service from an owner? Because I'm pretty sure you are wrong. If you were correct about your belief, I'm sure you can find an example of someone charged with murder and theft, and the theft charges being thrown out because the victim is unavailable to say something was stolen. I guess in your imagination I can steal money from the wallet of a person in a coma in front of a cop, and get off scot free, since the victim can't testify against me?
        fingerlocks 3y ago
        No, because you stole in front of a cop. If you stole from a comatose person in the witness of non-cop, and that non-cop has authority of agency over the comatose, they can can press charges and you can be arrested. Does that help?
        staticman2 3y ago
        You seem to be inventing legal terms and ideas like an improvisational poet ("authority of agency over the comatose"????). How could that possibly help?
        fingerlocks 3y ago
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_agency https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_agency
        staticman2 3y ago
        As that wikipedia article explains Agency is a commercial law concept. It has nothing to do with the prosecution of crimes under criminal law. Also "authority of agency" isn't a legal term. Which is why you'll find no results on google scholar. Agents have a scope of authority-- but nobody calls this "authority of agency" and furthermore your concept of an "authority of agency" for reporting a crime isn't a thing. (You'd have to actually read the results that come up on google scholar to confirm this as putting in direct quotes in google turns up results that don't contain that exact actual quote.) Furthermore you know you are just making things up, why not just concede you like to imagine how criminal law works and you are having fun making up things like "authority of agency"? Or perhaps you think i'm a very stupid person and treating you unfairly, maybe you can educate me by finding a reference for your claim that "In the United States you can’t be arrested and charged with theft without the owner claiming you actually stole something" I suspect your source was your impression of law and order episodes, but even if I'm wrong it seems unfair for you to demand evidence from others without providing any yourself. I look forward to being educated by how you know "In the United States you can’t be arrested and charged with theft without the owner claiming you actually stole something". This seems to be a crazy claim on it's face, since, as I explained, the owner of the object might be dead, in a coma, an infant, being threatened by the mob not to testify, etc. And the concept of hostile witnesses also exists in criminal law.

crooked-v 3y ago

Well, sure, here's a quick example of an uncooperative victim and the state attempting (and in this case failing) to prosecute on robbery charges anyway: https://www.norwichbulletin.com/story/news/crime/2009/03/21/witnesses-stay-silent-robbery-case/64982425007/ https://www.norwichbulletin.com/story/news/crime/2009/03/21/...

fingerlocks 3y ago
“charges and convictions” was not an inclusive-or statement
- ummonk 3y ago
  You claimed “In the United States you can’t be arrested and charged with theft without the owner claiming you actually stole something.” Then you shifted the goalposts to “charges and convictions”.
  - fingerlocks 3y ago
    Yes I did. Which I clarified because a pedantic ball flew over the first goal post.
    - staticman2 3y ago
      You asked "Do you have any examples of charges and convictions on theft without a prior claim of deprivation to a good or service from an owner?" The real question is do you have an example of a judge ruling that someone can't be charged and convicted on theft without a prior claim of deprivation to a good and service from an owner? Because I'm pretty sure you are wrong. If you were correct about your belief, I'm sure you can find an example of someone charged with murder and theft, and the theft charges being thrown out because the victim is unavailable to say something was stolen. I guess in your imagination I can steal money from the wallet of a person in a coma in front of a cop, and get off scot free, since the victim can't testify against me?
      - fingerlocks 3y ago
        No, because you stole in front of a cop. If you stole from a comatose person in the witness of non-cop, and that non-cop has authority of agency over the comatose, they can can press charges and you can be arrested. Does that help?
        staticman2 3y ago
        You seem to be inventing legal terms and ideas like an improvisational poet ("authority of agency over the comatose"????). How could that possibly help?
        fingerlocks 3y ago
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_agency https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_agency
        staticman2 3y ago
        As that wikipedia article explains Agency is a commercial law concept. It has nothing to do with the prosecution of crimes under criminal law. Also "authority of agency" isn't a legal term. Which is why you'll find no results on google scholar. Agents have a scope of authority-- but nobody calls this "authority of agency" and furthermore your concept of an "authority of agency" for reporting a crime isn't a thing. (You'd have to actually read the results that come up on google scholar to confirm this as putting in direct quotes in google turns up results that don't contain that exact actual quote.) Furthermore you know you are just making things up, why not just concede you like to imagine how criminal law works and you are having fun making up things like "authority of agency"? Or perhaps you think i'm a very stupid person and treating you unfairly, maybe you can educate me by finding a reference for your claim that "In the United States you can’t be arrested and charged with theft without the owner claiming you actually stole something" I suspect your source was your impression of law and order episodes, but even if I'm wrong it seems unfair for you to demand evidence from others without providing any yourself. I look forward to being educated by how you know "In the United States you can’t be arrested and charged with theft without the owner claiming you actually stole something". This seems to be a crazy claim on it's face, since, as I explained, the owner of the object might be dead, in a coma, an infant, being threatened by the mob not to testify, etc. And the concept of hostile witnesses also exists in criminal law.