4 ms·

I think the point that's trying to be made is, the traditionally recognized 'victim' is not the actual victim. The person whose "identity" was "stolen" is not a

by mixdup 3y ago

I think the point that's trying to be made is, the traditionally recognized 'victim' is not the actual victim. The person whose "identity" was "stolen" is not a victim, the bank is. What was stolen was money--from the bank. But, we've designed our system, laws, contracts, etc such that the third party who was not involved at all has all responsibility of cleaning up the mess shoved onto them

robertlagrant 3y ago
I don't really understand this. If you pay me to store your car in my garage, and it's stolen, who is a victim of car theft?
- 3np 3y ago
  Assuming the thief impersonated your friend, convincing you to hand over the keys and open the door so they could drive it off?
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    Can you finish your thought? I'm not following.
    - 3np 3y ago
      Sibling zaphod4prez laid it out for you, I hope.
- zaphod4prez 3y ago
  I think you're imagining the ID thief going to the bank and withdrawing your money from your bank account (which probably happens too). I also think your analogy of a "friend" isn't right... you are the bank's PAYING customer... you pay them to secure your money and only give it to you! If they fail to provide the service they're offering to you... seems like they ought to be responsible for their failure. But another, more common scenario here is that I convince the bank that I'm you and get a credit card or loan from the bank. Now the bank is knocking on YOUR door asking you to pay them back for the cash they handed to some random person... but they're the ones who messed up by giving cash to a random person and not verifying that they are who they say they are! You aren't really involved... the bank messed up by going "Oh you say you're Bob? Okay here you go!" Why is it your fault that they failed to accurately verify the identity of the person they gave THEIR money to? You didn't play any role in them deciding who to give their money, nor in their ID verification procedures.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    > I think you're imagining the ID thief going to the bank and withdrawing your money from your bank account (which probably happens too). No, I'm imagining a scenario where the things used to identify me to service providers is taken by someone. > I also think your analogy of a "friend" isn't right... I didn't mention a friend. > you are the bank's PAYING customer... you pay them to secure your money and only give it to you! I agree, but as per my analogy, the car's owner has had their car stolen. > If they fail to provide the service they're offering to you... seems like they ought to be responsible for their failure. As per my analogy, I'm not saying that the car shouldn't have been secured, nor that the storage provider shouldn't make the situation right via insurance etc. Only that the car owner is the one who is a victim of car theft. > You aren't really involved... the bank messed up by going "Oh you say you're Bob? Okay here you go!" Why is it your fault that they failed to accurately verify the identity of the person they gave THEIR money to? You didn't play any role in them deciding who to give their money, nor in their ID verification procedures. The bank being at fault doesn't mean the victim's identity wasn't stolen. All of these objections seem to assume that if someone has something stolen, it was their fault. That's not true, and that assertion is what I'm objecting to.

by mixdup 3y ago

robertlagrant 3y ago

I don't really understand this. If you pay me to store your car in my garage, and it's stolen, who is a victim of car theft?

3np 3y ago
Assuming the thief impersonated your friend, convincing you to hand over the keys and open the door so they could drive it off?
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  Can you finish your thought? I'm not following.
  - 3np 3y ago
    Sibling zaphod4prez laid it out for you, I hope.
zaphod4prez 3y ago
I think you're imagining the ID thief going to the bank and withdrawing your money from your bank account (which probably happens too). I also think your analogy of a "friend" isn't right... you are the bank's PAYING customer... you pay them to secure your money and only give it to you! If they fail to provide the service they're offering to you... seems like they ought to be responsible for their failure. But another, more common scenario here is that I convince the bank that I'm you and get a credit card or loan from the bank. Now the bank is knocking on YOUR door asking you to pay them back for the cash they handed to some random person... but they're the ones who messed up by giving cash to a random person and not verifying that they are who they say they are! You aren't really involved... the bank messed up by going "Oh you say you're Bob? Okay here you go!" Why is it your fault that they failed to accurately verify the identity of the person they gave THEIR money to? You didn't play any role in them deciding who to give their money, nor in their ID verification procedures.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  > I think you're imagining the ID thief going to the bank and withdrawing your money from your bank account (which probably happens too). No, I'm imagining a scenario where the things used to identify me to service providers is taken by someone. > I also think your analogy of a "friend" isn't right... I didn't mention a friend. > you are the bank's PAYING customer... you pay them to secure your money and only give it to you! I agree, but as per my analogy, the car's owner has had their car stolen. > If they fail to provide the service they're offering to you... seems like they ought to be responsible for their failure. As per my analogy, I'm not saying that the car shouldn't have been secured, nor that the storage provider shouldn't make the situation right via insurance etc. Only that the car owner is the one who is a victim of car theft. > You aren't really involved... the bank messed up by going "Oh you say you're Bob? Okay here you go!" Why is it your fault that they failed to accurately verify the identity of the person they gave THEIR money to? You didn't play any role in them deciding who to give their money, nor in their ID verification procedures. The bank being at fault doesn't mean the victim's identity wasn't stolen. All of these objections seem to assume that if someone has something stolen, it was their fault. That's not true, and that assertion is what I'm objecting to.