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I have read that composable and biodegradable items will not degrade when they are thrown into municipal waste. This is because the waste is sealed in massive c

by Ajay-p 3y ago

I have read that composable and biodegradable items will not degrade when they are thrown into municipal waste. This is because the waste is sealed in massive containers and without oxygen they will not decompose. Is this still true? I suppose it would reason that if they were indeed compost-able they could, but not in an anaerobic environment.

cassianoleal 3y ago
> the waste is sealed in massive containers and without oxygen they will not decompose What's the plan then? Keep accumulating airtight containers of waste forever?
- AussieWog93 3y ago
  I know our council (Monash) accepts compostable items in the green waste, and this is being rolled out gradually everywhere. Don't remember the exact dates, but I think there are plans to make it a nationwide thing by 2030. (Read the article, looks like the cups contain PFAS too, which could be damaging to health if used to grow food...)
  - scruple 3y ago
    We were given a green waste bin a few years ago. We use it, but I've always wondered... I doubt anyone is sorting through this waste in any useful sense. How in the world would we ever prevent cross-contimination between non-green waste and green waste? My neighbor, she's well meaning, but she puts her green waste into regular trash bags and chucks it into the green waste bin. That's been going on for 3 years now. I've mentioned it to her and she doesn't seem to get it.
    - toast0 3y ago
      Green waste goes into some sort of composting system. Maybe a bit of compacting on the truck which can break open some of the bags (but doesn't break all of them), then however many days of stick it in a pile, mix up the pile/stick it in a new pile, then filter for big pieces: everything small is organic compost, big items remaining in the compost get resorted. Your local waste hauler may do compost giveaways in conjunction with your sanitary district. If so, that's where that compost product goes and if you use it, you'll see some small non-organic materials make it through, including bits of plastic bags; but the process means they can label it organic compost.
    - Scoundreller 3y ago
      Depends on how your system handles it. In Toronto, they basically pulp it all, put it in a vat of water and scoop off the plastics at the top and really heavy stuff at the bottom before letting it do it's thing in a sealed digester. As a result, they even accept diapers because they'll at least soak off the stuff worth composting. A last step is to heat it enough to kill off any pathogens. Also accepts meat/fish/bones. https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/organic-waste-composting-1.5291132 https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/organic-waste-composting-1.5... If your system is just throwing everything into a big piles getting mixed around ("aerated"), the rules get different. Another city that uses the classic "big piles" method had to ban grass clippings because they contributed to too much odour (too much nitrogen = lots of ammonia, but would've made great fertilizer) https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/green-bin-composting-1.4826899 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/green-bin-composting...
      - scruple 3y ago
        That's fascinating, I'll have to research my local agency and see if I can find out more. Thanks!
- pedalpete 3y ago
  My understanding isn't that they are in containers", but the entire mound of trash is wrapped "pvc membranes" and sealed with clay. I think this is done on a daily and weekly basis as the landfill grows.
- 2muchcoffeeman 3y ago
  Keep Cup almost had it right with a reusable coffee cup that came in standard cafe sizes. Too bad the cups themselves weren’t very good and getting replacement parts was very difficult.
  - jackvalentine 3y ago
    > Too bad the cups themselves weren’t very good and getting replacement parts was very difficult. Can you elaborate? I've had my keep cup for 6 years now and the lid/band have held up. The cork band has a bit of a crack in it but I've ordered a replacement one quite easily... https://au.keepcup.com/shop/replacement-part https://au.keepcup.com/shop/replacement-part
    - glenngillen 3y ago
      The lids have a tendency to warp at the mouthpiece. I don’t know if it’s from the odd cafe serving coffee above drinkable temperatures or what, but of the 4 I’ve got only one lid is still usable.
    - 2muchcoffeeman 3y ago
      The original lids warp all the time. The cost of a replacement lid is $17AUD plus shipping $9AUD. I can't buy a lid where ever cups are sold. And a new medium cup is like $19 which I could just walk outside and buy when they were everywhere. Their new line starts at $38AUD! By contrast, a cheapo stainless double insulated cup with a twist on lid is my longest lasting cup ever. It cost me $10. Close to 10 years. Still going strong. And the steel is probably more recyclable than the Keep Cup.
  - nerdponx 3y ago
    Measure coffee by weight and you can accommodate a pretty wide range of reusable cups/mugs.
    - 2muchcoffeeman 3y ago
      This doesn’t work in a cafe setting. Keep Cup sizing follows normal take away cups.
- baxtr 3y ago
  Burn it?
  - Ajay-p 3y ago
    Maybe. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/21/climate/sweden-garbage-used-for-fuel.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/21/climate/sweden-garbage-us...
    - Scoundreller 3y ago
      That one gets too much news coverage. The biggest garbage incinerator in Europe is in Paris: https://sciencespoedj2022.fr/2022/04/19/the-fumes-of-wrath-in-a-paris-suburb-the-largest-waste-incinerator-in-europe-could-be-poisoning-locals%EF%BF%BC/ https://sciencespoedj2022.fr/2022/04/19/the-fumes-of-wrath-i... (and it's not the only one in Paris)
  - redwall_hp 3y ago
    That's what Japan does. People typically keep three bins: trash, recyclables and burnable trash. The ash is often used for concrete and other industrial products, and sometimes electricity is generated from the heat.
    - Scoundreller 3y ago
      You can also recover the metals, the ferrous ones anyway, because it doesn't get hot enough to burn them off. In theory, great for those objects that are metal stuff inside plastic stuff, so you recover something that you weren't going to (or didn't) recover with other methods. Interesting charts on Page 18 here: https://vbsa.ch/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Studie-Bunge-Internetversion.pdf https://vbsa.ch/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Studie-Bunge-Inte... Most metals end up in the bottom ash, but only half the lead and a small fraction of chromium... I thought the ash was hazmat though and using it in concrete was a bit experimental.
Scoundreller 3y ago
> This is because the waste is sealed in massive containers and without oxygen they will not decompose. Anaerobic breakdown is still a thing. But you get more methane rather than CO2. Landfills will generally tap "wells" to flare it off. If there's enough, they'll collect it an burn it in containerized generators for electricity and/or heat. It's a really dirty gas, but it can be "refined" and injected into municipal natural gas networks, but imo, that's greenwashing and not worth the effort. Some municipal compost systems do have sealed vats for their compost processing, which better captures all the methane produced. But as cities divert more paper/paperboard/compost from the waste stream into the recycling/compost stream, the landfill gas doesn't produce as much methane. The capture systems do best in somewhat old landfills before these diversion programs ramped up.

by Ajay-p 3y ago

cassianoleal 3y ago

> the waste is sealed in massive containers and without oxygen they will not decompose What's the plan then? Keep accumulating airtight containers of waste forever?

AussieWog93 3y ago
I know our council (Monash) accepts compostable items in the green waste, and this is being rolled out gradually everywhere. Don't remember the exact dates, but I think there are plans to make it a nationwide thing by 2030. (Read the article, looks like the cups contain PFAS too, which could be damaging to health if used to grow food...)
- scruple 3y ago
  We were given a green waste bin a few years ago. We use it, but I've always wondered... I doubt anyone is sorting through this waste in any useful sense. How in the world would we ever prevent cross-contimination between non-green waste and green waste? My neighbor, she's well meaning, but she puts her green waste into regular trash bags and chucks it into the green waste bin. That's been going on for 3 years now. I've mentioned it to her and she doesn't seem to get it.
  - toast0 3y ago
    Green waste goes into some sort of composting system. Maybe a bit of compacting on the truck which can break open some of the bags (but doesn't break all of them), then however many days of stick it in a pile, mix up the pile/stick it in a new pile, then filter for big pieces: everything small is organic compost, big items remaining in the compost get resorted. Your local waste hauler may do compost giveaways in conjunction with your sanitary district. If so, that's where that compost product goes and if you use it, you'll see some small non-organic materials make it through, including bits of plastic bags; but the process means they can label it organic compost.
  - Scoundreller 3y ago
    Depends on how your system handles it. In Toronto, they basically pulp it all, put it in a vat of water and scoop off the plastics at the top and really heavy stuff at the bottom before letting it do it's thing in a sealed digester. As a result, they even accept diapers because they'll at least soak off the stuff worth composting. A last step is to heat it enough to kill off any pathogens. Also accepts meat/fish/bones. https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/organic-waste-composting-1.5291132 https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/organic-waste-composting-1.5... If your system is just throwing everything into a big piles getting mixed around ("aerated"), the rules get different. Another city that uses the classic "big piles" method had to ban grass clippings because they contributed to too much odour (too much nitrogen = lots of ammonia, but would've made great fertilizer) https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/green-bin-composting-1.4826899 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/green-bin-composting...
    - scruple 3y ago
      That's fascinating, I'll have to research my local agency and see if I can find out more. Thanks!
pedalpete 3y ago
My understanding isn't that they are in containers", but the entire mound of trash is wrapped "pvc membranes" and sealed with clay. I think this is done on a daily and weekly basis as the landfill grows.
2muchcoffeeman 3y ago
Keep Cup almost had it right with a reusable coffee cup that came in standard cafe sizes. Too bad the cups themselves weren’t very good and getting replacement parts was very difficult.
- jackvalentine 3y ago
  > Too bad the cups themselves weren’t very good and getting replacement parts was very difficult. Can you elaborate? I've had my keep cup for 6 years now and the lid/band have held up. The cork band has a bit of a crack in it but I've ordered a replacement one quite easily... https://au.keepcup.com/shop/replacement-part https://au.keepcup.com/shop/replacement-part
  - glenngillen 3y ago
    The lids have a tendency to warp at the mouthpiece. I don’t know if it’s from the odd cafe serving coffee above drinkable temperatures or what, but of the 4 I’ve got only one lid is still usable.
  - 2muchcoffeeman 3y ago
    The original lids warp all the time. The cost of a replacement lid is $17AUD plus shipping $9AUD. I can't buy a lid where ever cups are sold. And a new medium cup is like $19 which I could just walk outside and buy when they were everywhere. Their new line starts at $38AUD! By contrast, a cheapo stainless double insulated cup with a twist on lid is my longest lasting cup ever. It cost me $10. Close to 10 years. Still going strong. And the steel is probably more recyclable than the Keep Cup.
- nerdponx 3y ago
  Measure coffee by weight and you can accommodate a pretty wide range of reusable cups/mugs.
  - 2muchcoffeeman 3y ago
    This doesn’t work in a cafe setting. Keep Cup sizing follows normal take away cups.
baxtr 3y ago
Burn it?
- Ajay-p 3y ago
  Maybe. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/21/climate/sweden-garbage-used-for-fuel.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/21/climate/sweden-garbage-us...
  - Scoundreller 3y ago
    That one gets too much news coverage. The biggest garbage incinerator in Europe is in Paris: https://sciencespoedj2022.fr/2022/04/19/the-fumes-of-wrath-in-a-paris-suburb-the-largest-waste-incinerator-in-europe-could-be-poisoning-locals%EF%BF%BC/ https://sciencespoedj2022.fr/2022/04/19/the-fumes-of-wrath-i... (and it's not the only one in Paris)
- redwall_hp 3y ago
  That's what Japan does. People typically keep three bins: trash, recyclables and burnable trash. The ash is often used for concrete and other industrial products, and sometimes electricity is generated from the heat.
  - Scoundreller 3y ago
    You can also recover the metals, the ferrous ones anyway, because it doesn't get hot enough to burn them off. In theory, great for those objects that are metal stuff inside plastic stuff, so you recover something that you weren't going to (or didn't) recover with other methods. Interesting charts on Page 18 here: https://vbsa.ch/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Studie-Bunge-Internetversion.pdf https://vbsa.ch/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Studie-Bunge-Inte... Most metals end up in the bottom ash, but only half the lead and a small fraction of chromium... I thought the ash was hazmat though and using it in concrete was a bit experimental.

Scoundreller 3y ago

> This is because the waste is sealed in massive containers and without oxygen they will not decompose. Anaerobic breakdown is still a thing. But you get more methane rather than CO2. Landfills will generally tap "wells" to flare it off. If there's enough, they'll collect it an burn it in containerized generators for electricity and/or heat. It's a really dirty gas, but it can be "refined" and injected into municipal natural gas networks, but imo, that's greenwashing and not worth the effort. Some municipal compost systems do have sealed vats for their compost processing, which better captures all the methane produced. But as cities divert more paper/paperboard/compost from the waste stream into the recycling/compost stream, the landfill gas doesn't produce as much methane. The capture systems do best in somewhat old landfills before these diversion programs ramped up.