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Actually I think battery swapping works really well on two-wheel form factors like motorcycles. The battery for a 50 mile e-bike barely weighs a couple pounds,

Actually I think battery swapping works really well on two-wheel form factors like motorcycles. The battery for a 50 mile e-bike barely weighs a couple pounds, that is ultra portable and ultra swappable. Not sure how heavy a electric motorcycles battery would be, possibly 100 lbs? That's a lot harder. 50 lbs would be a one person job for a wide range of consumers. Of course, the big problem with small EV transportation is that the batteries are largely being implemented in the same way. The batteries are being implemented for power tools. It's all the same cells underneath it, but each tool maker has their own special form. Factor/ plastic molding and plug interface. We _really_ need standards around this. Edit: a 150km range battery on a motorcycle is about 60kg currently. Of course if solid state and sulfur chemistries ever get commercialized, that could drop by 40-60% which is a lot different.

mike_hock 3y ago
Would also work on cars. It's the only way to retain the convenience of gasoline-powered cars of driving to a gas station, filling up real quick and then continuing your trip vs. having to wait for the car to "fast" charge for half an hour. Gas stations would turn into massive storage facilities to store replacement batteries, but is that any less feasible than massive parking lots for charging cars simultaneously? Not to mention the massive peak current that needs to be supported, which could be spread out evenly over 24 hours if the batteries were in storage.
- victorbjorklund 3y ago
  They used to have that in Israel. You drove your car to a swap station and it just swapped your battery for a charged one. They went belly up though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place_(company) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place_(company)
  - SOLAR_FIELDS 3y ago
    That was a full decade ago they went out of business. Perhaps the tech is more viable now for a multitude of reasons.
    - mike_hock 3y ago
      > The company's financial difficulties were caused by mismanagement, wasteful efforts to establish toeholds and run pilots in too many countries, the high investment required to develop the charging and swapping infrastructure, and a market penetration far lower than originally predicted by Shai Agassi. In other words, you can't bootstrap this thing on a shoestring budget (relatively speaking). It will work if governments will it into existence. They're also gonna have to will an electrical grid into existence that can support 3-5 times the current load if they want to ban combustion cars.
- recursive 3y ago
  The increase in weight and complexity to the car kind of kills this.
  - tuatoru 3y ago
    Why? How big is the penalty?
    - recursive 3y ago
      I can't find the sources now, so take it with an appropriate degree of skepticism, but I heard it on an EV podcast or something. I believe Tesla was working on a project like this years ago and abandoned it. They opted to go for structural packs instead.
- schrodinger 3y ago
  The skeptic in me worries about the opportunities this would open for bad actors. Imagine a "cartel" that buys low-value batteries (many charge cycles), swaps them out, and resells the new one. Or gas stations that do the same in reverse, give you a poorer battery in return for a good one, and then sells the good one. It would require aligned interests and strong regulation to work, I think.
  - mike_hock 3y ago
    You get gas with at least the posted octane number. You're gonna get a battery with at least the posted capacity. I don't see why this wouldn't work the same way. And then there's online reviews. Customers wouldn't want to swap at shops that swap in junk batteries.
    - schrodinger 3y ago
      I hope that logic works out. But a battery costs like 1,000x a tank of gas so the incentives are far higher…
Someone 3y ago
> 50 lbs would be a one person job for a wide range of consumers That may be doable by a wide range of consumers, but I think it certainly would rule out a significant portion of them. 50 pounds is about 23kg, and https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-6-2008-7096_EN.html https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-6-2008-7096_...: “Scientific studies have led the American National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) to conclude that 23 kg is the maximum weight which may be lifted manually under optimal conditions if health risks are to be avoided” https://www.first4lawyers.com/personal-injury/resources-and-guides/what-is-the-maximum-weight-you-can-lift-at-work/ https://www.first4lawyers.com/personal-injury/resources-and-...: “According to the Health and Safety Executive (HSE), a man shouldn’t lift anything heavier than 25kg, while the safe lifting weight for a woman is no heavier than 16kg. But the HSE has explained that these are broad guidelines, rather than safe limits for lifting. It added that lifting weights under these amounts results in a low risk of injury. These amounts are also the highest recommended weights for men and women. There are different recommended limits depending on how high you are lifting the load.”
- throwaway22032 3y ago
  It really depends on the size and shape of the object. The 25kg guideline includes all manner of things like big fridges etc. Most people can at least pick up 80kg + without injury, we can hoist each other up by the waist for example (the elderly and fat excluded). What you want to do is make the battery swap use optimal movement patterns. Few people are lifting 50+ kg at a weird angle or above their head for example.
  - BryanBigs 3y ago
    The fat and/or elderly are "most people".
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
adolph 3y ago
For 18v, something IP related expired for the Ryobi One Plus, so there are tons of batteries and some DC adapters.
- AtlasBarfed 3y ago
  I keep waiting for ultracheap eGo batteries. Actually I keep waiting for ultracheap lithium ion batteries, period. They are simply not being migrated to the consumer segment in proportion with the cost cuts that the auto manufacturers are getting. Like, where are my LFP and sodium ion batteries that should be dirt cheap? This mirrors a frustration I have with consumer solar cells which are far too expensive compared to the deals utilities get. This isn't just being cheap, there's lots of small scale stuff that consumer-level volumes can help with decarbonization. Yes, I understand that utility/industrial level price points are a special thing, but the consumer pricing is like 3x what the industrial pricing is. That means there is highway robbery.
  - adolph 3y ago
    Laws of nature: - High volume resellers out negotiate low volume. - New high volume consumers soak up any surplus capacity of producers, maintaining prices. Why would eGo offer batteries for a lower price than what they can already sell at their current capacity to make them? Manufacturing, packaging and retail capacity is not elastic at a fine grained level.
hwillis 3y ago
> Not sure how heavy a electric motorcycles battery would be, possibly 100 lbs? That's a lot harder. 50 lbs would be a one person job for a wide range of consumers. A 6.4 kWh (80-100 miles) battery like the one in the OP is ~60 lbs at the lightest. A larger battery like the 17.3 kWh (160-180 miles) one in a high-end Zero weighs 160+ lbs.

mike_hock 3y ago

Would also work on cars. It's the only way to retain the convenience of gasoline-powered cars of driving to a gas station, filling up real quick and then continuing your trip vs. having to wait for the car to "fast" charge for half an hour. Gas stations would turn into massive storage facilities to store replacement batteries, but is that any less feasible than massive parking lots for charging cars simultaneously? Not to mention the massive peak current that needs to be supported, which could be spread out evenly over 24 hours if the batteries were in storage.

victorbjorklund 3y ago
They used to have that in Israel. You drove your car to a swap station and it just swapped your battery for a charged one. They went belly up though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place_(company) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place_(company)
- SOLAR_FIELDS 3y ago
  That was a full decade ago they went out of business. Perhaps the tech is more viable now for a multitude of reasons.
  - mike_hock 3y ago
    > The company's financial difficulties were caused by mismanagement, wasteful efforts to establish toeholds and run pilots in too many countries, the high investment required to develop the charging and swapping infrastructure, and a market penetration far lower than originally predicted by Shai Agassi. In other words, you can't bootstrap this thing on a shoestring budget (relatively speaking). It will work if governments will it into existence. They're also gonna have to will an electrical grid into existence that can support 3-5 times the current load if they want to ban combustion cars.
recursive 3y ago
The increase in weight and complexity to the car kind of kills this.
- tuatoru 3y ago
  Why? How big is the penalty?
  - recursive 3y ago
    I can't find the sources now, so take it with an appropriate degree of skepticism, but I heard it on an EV podcast or something. I believe Tesla was working on a project like this years ago and abandoned it. They opted to go for structural packs instead.
schrodinger 3y ago
The skeptic in me worries about the opportunities this would open for bad actors. Imagine a "cartel" that buys low-value batteries (many charge cycles), swaps them out, and resells the new one. Or gas stations that do the same in reverse, give you a poorer battery in return for a good one, and then sells the good one. It would require aligned interests and strong regulation to work, I think.
- mike_hock 3y ago
  You get gas with at least the posted octane number. You're gonna get a battery with at least the posted capacity. I don't see why this wouldn't work the same way. And then there's online reviews. Customers wouldn't want to swap at shops that swap in junk batteries.
  - schrodinger 3y ago
    I hope that logic works out. But a battery costs like 1,000x a tank of gas so the incentives are far higher…

Someone 3y ago

> 50 lbs would be a one person job for a wide range of consumers That may be doable by a wide range of consumers, but I think it certainly would rule out a significant portion of them. 50 pounds is about 23kg, and https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-6-2008-7096_EN.html https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-6-2008-7096_...: “Scientific studies have led the American National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) to conclude that 23 kg is the maximum weight which may be lifted manually under optimal conditions if health risks are to be avoided” https://www.first4lawyers.com/personal-injury/resources-and-guides/what-is-the-maximum-weight-you-can-lift-at-work/ https://www.first4lawyers.com/personal-injury/resources-and-...: “According to the Health and Safety Executive (HSE), a man shouldn’t lift anything heavier than 25kg, while the safe lifting weight for a woman is no heavier than 16kg. But the HSE has explained that these are broad guidelines, rather than safe limits for lifting. It added that lifting weights under these amounts results in a low risk of injury. These amounts are also the highest recommended weights for men and women. There are different recommended limits depending on how high you are lifting the load.”

throwaway22032 3y ago
It really depends on the size and shape of the object. The 25kg guideline includes all manner of things like big fridges etc. Most people can at least pick up 80kg + without injury, we can hoist each other up by the waist for example (the elderly and fat excluded). What you want to do is make the battery swap use optimal movement patterns. Few people are lifting 50+ kg at a weird angle or above their head for example.
- BryanBigs 3y ago
  The fat and/or elderly are "most people".
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

adolph 3y ago

For 18v, something IP related expired for the Ryobi One Plus, so there are tons of batteries and some DC adapters.

AtlasBarfed 3y ago
I keep waiting for ultracheap eGo batteries. Actually I keep waiting for ultracheap lithium ion batteries, period. They are simply not being migrated to the consumer segment in proportion with the cost cuts that the auto manufacturers are getting. Like, where are my LFP and sodium ion batteries that should be dirt cheap? This mirrors a frustration I have with consumer solar cells which are far too expensive compared to the deals utilities get. This isn't just being cheap, there's lots of small scale stuff that consumer-level volumes can help with decarbonization. Yes, I understand that utility/industrial level price points are a special thing, but the consumer pricing is like 3x what the industrial pricing is. That means there is highway robbery.
- adolph 3y ago
  Laws of nature: - High volume resellers out negotiate low volume. - New high volume consumers soak up any surplus capacity of producers, maintaining prices. Why would eGo offer batteries for a lower price than what they can already sell at their current capacity to make them? Manufacturing, packaging and retail capacity is not elastic at a fine grained level.

hwillis 3y ago

> Not sure how heavy a electric motorcycles battery would be, possibly 100 lbs? That's a lot harder. 50 lbs would be a one person job for a wide range of consumers. A 6.4 kWh (80-100 miles) battery like the one in the OP is ~60 lbs at the lightest. A larger battery like the 17.3 kWh (160-180 miles) one in a high-end Zero weighs 160+ lbs.