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I'm sure many US-based tech companies can be blamed for preferring the cheaper option ... I would think our visa process plays no small part here, further the l

I'm sure many US-based tech companies can be blamed for preferring the cheaper option ... I would think our visa process plays no small part here, further the lax compliance on what "special skillset" means in the case of H-* visas. The system allows it, why not take advantage of such.

BobaFloutist 3y ago
Work visas of this type should pretty clearly provide a path to at least permanent residency, otherwise the workers are captive employees, and, in any case, highly educated skilled workers that an employer is arguing they can't replace out of resident populations seem like a population that even people that want restrictions on immigration would consider good candidates for it.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- sokoloff 3y ago
  I thought an H1B is a dual-intent visa and has a documented path towards permanent residency. Does it not?
  - SpicyLemonZest 3y ago
    Dual-intent just means that you're allowed to be interested in permanent residency. If you have a B-2 visitor visa, for example, customs won't let you into the country if you tell them you're hoping to stay. The actual process of permanent residency has to come from a separate program, such as the PERM one Apple used here.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- koolba 3y ago
  H1B should be an annual auction so that the fair market value is captured by the country as a whole. Existing employers should be required to pay the latest market price to maintain their visas. That would boost wages for all other workers and discriminatorily raise costs against orgs that do not want to “hire American”.
  - davidw 3y ago
    Markets and auctions are often good ways of allocating things, but a big flaw with this is that there is still some arbitrary, "magic number" of H1B visas to auction. The current number is not derived from anything empirical, it's just a number some politicians picked.
    - koolba 3y ago
      > The current number is not derived from anything empirical, it's just a number some politicians picked. That’s fine too. If it’s too low, companies can lobby to have it increased. If it’s too high, workers can lobby to have it reduced.
      - davidw 3y ago
        That's thinking of it like some kind of optimal number though, which really isn't the case anyway. There is no fixed sized pie. How many big tech companies were founded or run by immigrants or their children?
        koolba 3y ago
        There’s absolutely an optimal number. It’s whatever number the citizen’s as a whole decide that number to be. That’s the de facto optimal number. The auction system to maximize the fees collected would apply regardless of the number of visas.
        davidw 3y ago
        That's not really how these kinds of things are decided in the US.
- salamandersss 3y ago
  I would argue path to PR on humanitarian grounds, but not citizen centric ones. It's probably ideal from a citizen's perspective to be like Dubai and attract talent with easy professional temp visas and then shitcan them the second they run out of money or become inconvenient.
- jmspring 3y ago
  Actually, if there are (and there are usually are) citizens with the skillset, the person on the visa should not be hired. And these visas are used by companies to not hire those with the same skills. The various body shops are one thing, but I've seen multiple large companies where they have incompetent individuals of the same nationality under a manager (maybe second level) as well - whole teams. 75+% on H1b. These are "wage draining" visas, not special skillsets. If it was actually special skillsets, I agree with you.
ramadan_steve 3y ago
[dead]
at-fates-hands 3y ago
I find it interesting that Apple hasn't done what many other large US corporations have done and just open offices in a country like India. Then they essentially get rid of any US based employees. No H1B's needed and you're still paying pennies on the dollar for the work.
- danielmarkbruce 3y ago
  Try working with people on a 12 hr time difference. It's very difficult.. I don't believe it truly works. I don't think management at some places know it doesn't work because they aren't involved in the actual work.
  - astrange 3y ago
    I don't know about 12 hours away - that'd be China and Perth - but there's certainly FAANG engineering offices in Europe, Canada, Japan, Sydney… But FAANG isn't going to leave Silicon Valley. If your theory says that's a good idea, you should ditch it for one that has empirical evidence for working.
    - subarctic 3y ago
      FWIW, it looks like Mumbai is 13.5h ahead of California and 10.5h ahead of New York, which works out to 12h if you average them
    - danielmarkbruce 3y ago
      California to various parts of India is 12 hrs at various times in the year.
- starcraft2wol 3y ago
  Brand.

BobaFloutist 3y ago

Work visas of this type should pretty clearly provide a path to at least permanent residency, otherwise the workers are captive employees, and, in any case, highly educated skilled workers that an employer is arguing they can't replace out of resident populations seem like a population that even people that want restrictions on immigration would consider good candidates for it.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
sokoloff 3y ago
I thought an H1B is a dual-intent visa and has a documented path towards permanent residency. Does it not?
- SpicyLemonZest 3y ago
  Dual-intent just means that you're allowed to be interested in permanent residency. If you have a B-2 visitor visa, for example, customs won't let you into the country if you tell them you're hoping to stay. The actual process of permanent residency has to come from a separate program, such as the PERM one Apple used here.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
koolba 3y ago
H1B should be an annual auction so that the fair market value is captured by the country as a whole. Existing employers should be required to pay the latest market price to maintain their visas. That would boost wages for all other workers and discriminatorily raise costs against orgs that do not want to “hire American”.
- davidw 3y ago
  Markets and auctions are often good ways of allocating things, but a big flaw with this is that there is still some arbitrary, "magic number" of H1B visas to auction. The current number is not derived from anything empirical, it's just a number some politicians picked.
  - koolba 3y ago
    > The current number is not derived from anything empirical, it's just a number some politicians picked. That’s fine too. If it’s too low, companies can lobby to have it increased. If it’s too high, workers can lobby to have it reduced.
    - davidw 3y ago
      That's thinking of it like some kind of optimal number though, which really isn't the case anyway. There is no fixed sized pie. How many big tech companies were founded or run by immigrants or their children?
      - koolba 3y ago
        There’s absolutely an optimal number. It’s whatever number the citizen’s as a whole decide that number to be. That’s the de facto optimal number. The auction system to maximize the fees collected would apply regardless of the number of visas.
        davidw 3y ago
        That's not really how these kinds of things are decided in the US.
salamandersss 3y ago
I would argue path to PR on humanitarian grounds, but not citizen centric ones. It's probably ideal from a citizen's perspective to be like Dubai and attract talent with easy professional temp visas and then shitcan them the second they run out of money or become inconvenient.
jmspring 3y ago
Actually, if there are (and there are usually are) citizens with the skillset, the person on the visa should not be hired. And these visas are used by companies to not hire those with the same skills. The various body shops are one thing, but I've seen multiple large companies where they have incompetent individuals of the same nationality under a manager (maybe second level) as well - whole teams. 75+% on H1b. These are "wage draining" visas, not special skillsets. If it was actually special skillsets, I agree with you.

ramadan_steve 3y ago

[dead]

at-fates-hands 3y ago

I find it interesting that Apple hasn't done what many other large US corporations have done and just open offices in a country like India. Then they essentially get rid of any US based employees. No H1B's needed and you're still paying pennies on the dollar for the work.

danielmarkbruce 3y ago
Try working with people on a 12 hr time difference. It's very difficult.. I don't believe it truly works. I don't think management at some places know it doesn't work because they aren't involved in the actual work.
- astrange 3y ago
  I don't know about 12 hours away - that'd be China and Perth - but there's certainly FAANG engineering offices in Europe, Canada, Japan, Sydney… But FAANG isn't going to leave Silicon Valley. If your theory says that's a good idea, you should ditch it for one that has empirical evidence for working.
  - subarctic 3y ago
    FWIW, it looks like Mumbai is 13.5h ahead of California and 10.5h ahead of New York, which works out to 12h if you average them
  - danielmarkbruce 3y ago
    California to various parts of India is 12 hrs at various times in the year.
starcraft2wol 3y ago
Brand.