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Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says
- superduty 3y agoIs this the same DOJ going after SpaceX for the opposite?
- umeshunni 3y agoThey're going after both companies for discrimination on the basis of national origin.
- PabloRobles 3y agoSpaceX works on (potentially) military techologies covered by ITAR protection.
- TMWNN 3y ago... which makes the DoJ going after SpaceX for allegedly not hiring refugees/non-citizens all the stranger.
- staringback 3y agoWell, they are seemingly allow to hire permanent residents and are not restricted to citizens only. If there was a citizen only requirement this would be a non issue. You aren't allowed to exclude somebody who would otherwise be eligible because their work permit has an expiry date
- FireBeyond 3y agoBecause those people were able to legally do some of those jobs, but SpaceX chose not to consider them because it would be more administration/bureaucracy for SpaceX. Ergo, discriminating on the basis of their status. It was the same with disabilities, leading to the creation of the ADA. Companies would argue that they shouldn't have to hire someone in a wheelchair because it would cost them money to build wheelchair ramps and other accessibility aids.
- bubblethink 3y agoThe reality is that the regulations and restrictions in the other direction are much more severe. It's not that SpaceX cares about whom they hire; they'd hire anyone competent. The gov. will come down hard on export control and other issues if SpaceX slips up. So SpaceX essentially said fck it, just be a citizen or LPR. And this is more a sign of exasperation than anything else.
- avereveard 3y agothere's no contraddiction there, discrimination is bad both ways
- jkaplowitz 3y agoBoth are illegal in most circumstances, so yes.
- randyrand 3y agogotta toe the line! or just hire more robots, much easier.
- okwubodu 3y agoNot the opposite. The full group referenced here is “US citizens and certain non-US citizens whose permission to live in and work in the United States does not expire," and they went after SpaceX for discrimination against the latter (refugees and asylees, specifically).
- paulddraper 3y agoSame in the sense of "discrimination" Opposite in the sense of the direction of the discrimination.
- trident5000 3y ago[flagged]
- slater 3y agoRiiiight. Yeah, that must be it. No other possible reason whatsoever.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- trident5000 3y agoOf course thats it. Are you this naive? By the way a judge blocked it.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- robotnikman 3y agoIt says Apple agreed to pay the fine, but does this mean they will actually stop discriminating in their hiring?
- paulddraper 3y agoThe only person who can conclusively answer that would need a time machine to speak to you.
- jkaplowitz 3y agoUnclear, but they committed to certain changes in behavior as well as 3 years of DOJ monitoring, so the fine is not the whole story.
- jws 3y agoThe DOJ wants them to allow electronic submission of applications to PERM jobs and to publish these jobs anywhere they publish other jobs. Apple agreed to this and to train their relevant employees about the issue for three years. The article doesn't come right out and say it, but the case seems to have turned on PERM jobs being only available when there isn't a citizen/refugee/permanent-resident available to fill the position and that applying in paper was an unreasonable hurdle to these classes and that the positions should be advertised as widely as other jobs to ensure they aren't missing potential protected class workers who might like to apply.
- vlovich123 3y agoFrom what I’ve seen, often these jobs already have a candidate in mind and the “post the job listing” is a pro forma requirement. So this is the government forcing the company through extra checklist that will end up in the exact same candidate being hired anyway.
- jmspring 3y agoI'm sure many US-based tech companies can be blamed for preferring the cheaper option ... I would think our visa process plays no small part here, further the lax compliance on what "special skillset" means in the case of H-* visas. The system allows it, why not take advantage of such.
- BobaFloutist 3y agoWork visas of this type should pretty clearly provide a path to at least permanent residency, otherwise the workers are captive employees, and, in any case, highly educated skilled workers that an employer is arguing they can't replace out of resident populations seem like a population that even people that want restrictions on immigration would consider good candidates for it.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- sokoloff 3y agoI thought an H1B is a dual-intent visa and has a documented path towards permanent residency. Does it not?
- SpicyLemonZest 3y agoDual-intent just means that you're allowed to be interested in permanent residency. If you have a B-2 visitor visa, for example, customs won't let you into the country if you tell them you're hoping to stay. The actual process of permanent residency has to come from a separate program, such as the PERM one Apple used here.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- koolba 3y agoH1B should be an annual auction so that the fair market value is captured by the country as a whole. Existing employers should be required to pay the latest market price to maintain their visas. That would boost wages for all other workers and discriminatorily raise costs against orgs that do not want to “hire American”.
- Georgelemental 3y agoDOJ press release: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-secures-25-million-landmark-agreement-apple-resolve-employment https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-secures-25...
- justrealist 3y agoThis is the thing where when you want to sponsor a specific employee for an H1B you have to post notices pretending to look for American citizens instead. Every FAANG is guilty of this. Every startup is guilty of this. There is no law less adhered to in the US. Everyone posts the notice on the office fridge or the receptionist stand or runs some newspaper ad to cover the nominal letter of the law. It's completely pointless. Just to add some context here.
- pridkett 3y agoAre you telling me all those job opportunities in the back of IEEE Spectrum where they give 1 line job descriptions and tell you to mail your resume to some anonymous post office box aren’t actual job opportunities? I can’t believe it! In other words, professional societies are complicit in this too.
- sokoloff 3y agoI wonder if they didn’t do it, ifthe argument would be made that “look, these companies didn’t even advertise in IEEE Spectrum!” so they follow along and advertise there as well.
- ianhawes 3y agoNewspapers absolutely love the PERM stuff because they charge 5x the price. Larger publications that have self-serve job postings will specifically _not_ allow PERM ads without talking to a sales rep who will give you a substantially higher price than the self-service option.
- astrostl 3y agoYep. And in many cities there is only one viable newspaper, so they run absolutely wild with the monopoly status.
- rhuru 3y agoWell, stupid laws will get stupid compliance. The idea that asking companies to fire their existing employer just to hire some "citizen" employee is dumb beyong measure. H1B visas should not exist in first place. Just give green card and let the person be citizen. The problem is compounded by the racial quota for Indians in greencards. Indians are extremely good at hacking systems and longer they stay in that queue, they would totally destroy this sort of idiotic system. (This is a complement to Indians).
- SpicyLemonZest 3y agoI'm pretty sympathetic to Apple here. The article makes it sound like they did this for no reason, but the point of these hidden PERM positions is to be escape valves for the bonkers H1B system, which otherwise requires that skilled, valuable employees get booted out of the country after 3-6 years. If the government doesn't want Apple jumping through loopholes they should pass a more reasonable skilled visa program.
- shadowgovt 3y agoStill a bit hard to explain why Apple appeared to be hiding these jobs from qualified native candidates, refugees, and asylees.
- SpicyLemonZest 3y agoBecause they don't want to be compelled by nonsensical immigration restrictions to fire and deport an existing employee they're happy with and hire someone else in their place.
- jboy55 3y agoThese 'Jobs' are already filled. Someone on an H1B, who's working at the job, in some cases for years, asks for the company to get them their green card. The company now has to advertise that job, and take applicants on the job. Theoretically if they find a qualified candidate they have to fire the worker who asked for PERM, and hire the candidate. Since PERM applications are seen as a perk for good employees, and having to fire the employee who asked for PERM if the process finds someone, companies hide the job applications, and find any reason to reject any applicant. The whole process is ridiculous.
- ralferoo 3y ago> Theoretically if they find a qualified candidate they have to fire the worker who asked for PERM, and hire the candidate. This doesn't seem like the only option to me. They could hire the newly discovered qualified candidate AND keep the existing employee on the H1B visa and try again. For companies that are continually recruiting and have an incredibly tough interview process, it doesn't sound like a disaster to unintentionally come across someone good.
- clumsysmurf 3y agoI worked at a company owned by some large banks. When the immigration lawyer came for a meetings roughly once per year, the place got super quiet. Everyone I worked with did basic stuff ... docker, Spring Boot, and I didn't understand how such basic positions needed visas in such a large metro like Phoenix. Yet, the pay was comparable ... there must be some angle I don't understand.
- thewileyone 3y agoLook at composition of the HR recruitment team from all angles ... that's usually a clue.
- supportengineer 3y ago"You will obey your manager or you will be deported" is very powerful.
- rexpop 3y agoFrankly, it's too powerful. We need much stronger protections for workers if we're going to continue down this route. Deportation threats undermine labor's bargaining power, driving down wages and working conditions. How can we expect to operate a democracy when workers have this gun to their head?
- alphanullmeric 3y agoWhat gun? I see only the one you’re asking to be pointed at others.
- rexpop 3y agoDeportation orders in the United States are executed by Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), a division of the Department of Homeland Security. ICE agents are authorized to carry firearms such as handguns, rifles, and shotguns.
- ChrisMarshallNY 3y agoI suspect that this is more a "certain managers wanted certain types of employees," as opposed to a systemic, companywide decree from Up High (like IBM's ageism). Apple just makes too damn much money to worry overmuch about salaries. If anything, a lot of managers like H1Bs, because they can drive them like slaves. I've seen exactly that, in front of my own eyes. It's pretty disturbing, if you are a manager like me.
- Jochim 3y agoWeren't Apple one of the ringleaders in the conspiracy to suppress wages between the large tech companies a few years back?
- rexpop 3y agoYes, ten years back[0]: > In one email exchange after a Google recruiter solicited an Apple employee, Schmidt told Jobs that the recruiter would be fired, court documents show. Jobs then forwarded Schmidt’s note to a top Apple human resources executive with a smiley face. > Apple, Google, Adobe and Intel in 2010 settled a U.S. Department of Justice probe by agreeing not to enter into such no-hire deals in the future. The four companies had since been fighting the civil antitrust class action. 0. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-google-settlement-idUSBREA3N1Y120140424 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-google-settlement-i...
- ChrisMarshallNY 3y agoGood point. I am willing to stand corrected, but I've also seen what I've seen.
- rexpop 3y agoI think the third option is more plausible; neither executive decree nor individual managers' particular penchant drives these trends, but rather widespread cultural trends that individual managers act on subconsciously. We're likely talking about favoring H-1B visas; predominantly Indian, and predominantly male, with a median age of 34.[0] Do individual hiring managers have individual, personal biases? Yes, but what do you call a collective group who all exhibit the same bias? We can speculate about their personal reasons, but keep in mind that H-1B workers are inordinate victims of wage theft! [1] > Thousands of skilled migrants employed by HCL Technologies—an India-based IT staffing firm that places H-1B workers at top corporations like Disney, FedEx, and Google—appear to have been underpaid by at least $95 million So perhaps it is simple economics: precarious immigrant workers are easier to steal from. 0. https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/data/H1B_Characteristics_Congressional_Report_FY2021-3.2.22.pdf https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/data/H1B_... 1. https://www.epi.org/press/new-epi-report-reveals-wage-theft-on-a-grand-scale-in-the-h-1b-visa-program/ https://www.epi.org/press/new-epi-report-reveals-wage-theft-...
- ren_engineer 3y ago>Apple agreed to pay up to $25 million in back pay I'm sure that will be devastating for a company with 162 Billion in cash and really make them think twice
- deathanatos 3y agoI usually scale these to "if we fined a normal person". In this case, a proportional fine to a person is about $3.91.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- tomohelix 3y agoReading into the press release, there is a distinction that probably escapes most native citizens here: they are talking about EB2 visa, not H1B. PERM certification is not the same labor certification done in H1B. PERM is a much more rigorous and demanding process and it costs a lot more money than anything related to H1B. The reason is because it leads to a green card, not just a work permit. Often, it requires an advance degree and higher qualification than H1B too, PhDs or experienced masters. The money is paid upfront and USCIS then look into it and approves PERM on a case by case basis often taking a year or more. Then when the PERM passes, the applicant can finally get on the green card backlog and wait a few more years, or a decade if you were born in the wrong place... This is to say the quality of applicants here is very high and Apple actually felt it was worth it to invest tens of thousands of dollars on each of them just for a green card gamble, which the employee can get then quit Apple immediately after and nothing can be done to them because they are now a permanent resident. No such thing as wage depression or abuse at this point because they are for all legal purposes, an equal to any American once they have EB2.
- giobox 3y ago> there is a distinction that probably escapes most native citizens here: they are talking about EB2 visa, not H1B. > Often, it requires an advance degree and higher qualification than H1B too, PhDs or experienced masters. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but the PERM process applies when H1B holders seek to gain permanent residency too - at least that's been my experience. It also applies to the L1 etc: https://www.lawfirm4immigrants.com/h-1b-green-card-transition-perm-labor-certification/ https://www.lawfirm4immigrants.com/h-1b-green-card-transitio... PERM certification is required to get a GC on an H1B (it's not needed to get an H1B, just required when the H1B holder seeks to get permanent residency). There's another side to this story that the media reporting almost never mentions on this; many in the PERM process have lived in the USA for a long time and established families, children, communities etc. To deny them during PERM literally means in many cases to ship them and their American children "home" to a country they may not have seen for 20 years. In some cases the American kids won't even be able to speak the main language of their parent's birth country. The solution as always is pretty simple - we need to divorce immigration status from employment - the processes should not be linked. This would at a stroke remove incentives for less scrupulous employers to abuse the system too.
- booleandilemma 3y agoMy company's goal seems to be to hire every Indian south of Hyderabad. I do wonder when Americans are going to wake up and realize these high-paying jobs could be going to them.
- slipshady 3y agoMaybe Americans are just terrible at interviewing for these jobs?
- NovemberWhiskey 3y agoThe unstated truth here is that when you advertise in order to get PERM certification, you really don't actually want to get applications. The 99% scenario is you've already got an employee who is on a non-immigrant visa, that you're invested in, and that you want to get onto the green card trajectory.
- VinLucero 3y agoWhat are the incentives at Play here? You seem to know the rules of the game.
- bubblethink 3y agoHere's the lay of the land: 1) You can hire temp workers on visas relatively easily and in large numbers. This benefits employers, politicians, economy, etc. 2) These workers need permanent status. US immigration is uniquely regressive in that everything flows through the employer in most cases and visa holders have no agency. So the employer needs to petition for a "permanent" employee. 3) So although these people are already employed, the employer needs to go through a PERM process where they advertise the job and claim to the gov. that they couldn't hire anyone else and this is the most qualified employee for the job. 4) Although it's a farce, DOJ gets mad if there is a perception that the employer tried to make the PERM process more favorable to the employee they already have.
- NovemberWhiskey 3y agoAnd if this doesn't make it seem farcical enough: you would think that an employee who'd been working at your firm would have lots of unique skills and familiarity with corporate processes, technology etc. that are valuable, and that you could write a job description that required those. But no - your immigration law firm will tell you that you absolutely can't do that, and that you have to pretend to hire into some kind of imaginary position that reflects the knowledge and skills of someone in the job market who would qualify but for the fact that they don't have skills that could only be acquired at your firm.
- 3y ago
- lessbergstein 3y agoAll the FAANG and similar corps have been doing this for decades at this point. Our government works for them. This judgement is a joke designed to save face.
- JAlexoid 3y agoIf US government worked for FAANG, you'd have a much more streamlined process... But the fact is, that no one is happy with the immigration process. It's utterly inhumane and expensive.
- klabb3 3y agoIt really is awful. It also has arbitrary travel restrictions so that you can’t go home in case of sickness, death, weddings in the family for instance. And to add to that, you don’t know how long it’s going to take. It’s all rate limited in a very opaque fashion, instead of just having a simple to understand but high bar. In either case, the US as a whole benefits so overwhelmingly from these types of immigrants. It’s really the best and brightest. They just come pre-trained and start paying high taxes immediately.
- VirusNewbie 3y agoI have worked at other FAANGs where I see certain immigrant managers only seem to hire other immigrants from the same country...
- meowtimemania 3y agoI've noticed this at companies I've worked at. Either at the team level, org level, or even the company level. I've observed it from White, Chinese and Indians. I think there's just a human tendency of in group bias.
- trident5000 3y agoExcept only one of these groups gets penalized for the behavior.
- billy_bitchtits 3y agohappens every time where I work. once you get a manager from India, they will rarely hire anyone other than Indians again.
- VirusNewbie 3y agoIn my case, I wasn't referring to indians, I meant chinese immigrants. My last few managers have been Indian immigrants and they all had diverse teams. I'm sure it does happen though.
- shmde 3y agoEvery group does this, but its okay to openly write discriminatory shit against Indians and chinese online. Just look at the academic hiring phds for aerospace related department in US and tell me its not filled with hispanics. When you start pointing fingers at people other than Indian/SEA and Chinese now it gets into the racist territory.
- VirusNewbie 3y agoYeah but we aren’t talking racism here we are talking nationalism. It’s not the same to hire lots of hispanics or to say “wow this team is primarily asian”. Here i’m saying particular hiring managers only want people who were born in their country of origin.
- vsskanth 3y agoI think this relates to something called batch PERM where they can apply for employment based (EB) green cards for batches of their existing visa employees in similar roles instead of doing recruitment for every single position. Meta got in trouble with the DOJ for the same thing. They advertised for positions in newspapers and only accepted paper applications for PERM positions, unlike their other jobs which are advertised online. This is mainly because you don't want anyone actually applying for the PERM roles, since you need to prove no minimally (not most) qualified US citizen or PR could be found. I think long term this is going to make getting PERM approved more difficult. It already takes 2-3 years now (without any audits) to get an I-140 (green card) application approved, not to mention getting the card can take decades in some cases. People on H1B work visa can't stay on it for more than 6 years unless they actually get through PERM and get I-140, so I'm expecting this change will have a chilling effect on employers sponsoring work visas and applying for PERM unless it's a very specialized role. Why would you sponsor someone if you know they can't work in the country long term ? Hard times ahead for people on visa.
- az226 3y agoLegislators can change the rules if they don’t like them and want them changed. They can add the requirement of posting the job online.
- vsskanth 3y agoLegislators love the status quo. Having a rotating roster of complaint foreign workers whose employers control their visa, you get to keep all their FICA taxes, AND you get to kick them out after 6 years. It's basically Dubai++
- sgjohnson 3y ago> Legislators can change the rules Let's stop pretending that immigration law can be changed in the current political climate. It's a remote, theoretical possibility, rather than a practical one.
- jl2718 3y agoIf all their job postings are not actually hiring, then they won’t get any applicants for the jobs that actually are, and then they can use that as evidence that they can’t find in-country candidates. So basically the only way to find any real job posting is to spam-apply to everything. Is there a service for that?
- Tildey 3y agogoogle’s new service: gResume, designed to solve the tech industry’s problems around recruitment
- m3kw9 3y agoApple got sued for hiring diversity lol
- Elena120 3y ago[dead]
- mbfg 3y ago25 million is chump change to Apple. To whatever extent the practice was deviously purposeful, this ruling only emboldens that urge.
- Elena120 3y ago[dead]
- trident5000 3y agoCompanies complain the H1B program is needed because the talent doesnt exist. Thats just a lie to get cheaper labor.
- Racing0461 3y agoShould have gotton the corporate death penalty for this.
- jmyeet 3y agoI don't know if Apple does this but various bodyshop companies (eg Infosys) absolutely do. Other comments have argued PERM applicants are high-quality. That's often not the case. Let me explain the process for non-Americans on how you go through employment-based immigration to the US. You get a work visa. There are typically 4 options. There are 4 major options (there are others that are less common): 1. H1B: requires a bachelor's degree or equivalent experience. There is an annual quota. There are now more applicants than visas so there is a lottery. If you don't get picked, try again next year. H1B is issued for 3 years and can be renewed for another 3. Beyond that, you have to leave or file a PERM application and you can stay while it's pending. H1B is transferable with minimal effort to a new employer; 2. TN visa: available to Canadians. It's a 3 year nonimmigrant intent visa that requires. It can technically be renewed repeatedly but CBP is free to decide you're really living here and just deny your visa. The conservative approach is that TN holders wishing to immigrate will transfer to an H1B when possible. H1Bs can have weird conditions like when and how often you can re-enter the country. Some countries don't allow re-entry beyond the first year so leaving means going to a consulate and applying for a new visa; 3. E3 visa: much like a TN but available to Australians. It's 2 years, nonimmigrant intent and not transferable. There's a quota but it's never been hit. Many wishing to get a green card will also try to get an H1B at some point; 4. L1 visa: large companies use this for transfers. Work in Canada or London for a year and then get transferred. This brings us to PERM. It's basically a 2 step process: 1. File a PERM. This involves many steps like getting a labor certification. This takes 6-24+ months. USCIS may randomly audit you, which can add 1-2 years. They may have a reason too but but they also randomly audit a large number of applications, allegedly to stop the system being gamed. The reality is that it's arbitrary and capricious. Things may just randomly take 2 years longer for no reason at all. Once your number comes up (more on this below), you go to the next step; 2. File an adjustment of status ("AoS"). There are 2 forms that can be filed concurrently (I-141 and I-485 IIRC). This should only take 6-12 months. It depends on your service center though. If there's something weird about your application it may take longer with multiple rounds of RFE ("Requests for Evidence") that each take months to be examined. PERMs have a total quota and a per-country quota (of 7% of the total). And by "country" I mean "country of birth". Your passport doesn't matter at all. If you're born to Norwegian parents in Mumbai, you'll be in the India queue and you don't want to be there. Expect to wait 10-30 years because there is a backlog in the millions. Occasionally there's some talk of Congress reforming this but nothing much has changed in a long time. So where's the abuse? It takes 2 forms: 1. The Department of Labor is meant to ensure you're not underpaid (ie exploited). But they look at average pay for software engineers in a geographic area. For a Big Tech company, this could be substantially higher. But they don't have to pay you that higher amount technically because you're beholden to the company. If you leave you need to file a new PERM (but you keep your priority date). Still, this might add a year or two; and 2. Oncd you have your green card you don't need work authorization anymore so you can freely take a new job. So if you're from India you're effectively an indentured servant for decades because of the backlog. So H1Bs have no per-country quota but green cards do. We issue way more H1Bs to Indian-born workers than we issue green cards to so the queue is only getting longer. Bear in mind tooo that if you're a worker with a spouse and two children you'll need 4 from the quota not 1. So these bodyshop companies that employ a lot of Indian nationals flood the H1B pipeline. It's why there's a lottery. The companies don't care who does and doesn't get a visa. These are relatively low paying jobs, which in practice have bad conditions. The threat of being fired keepes workers from demanding better pay and conditions let alone leaving. Was apple engaging in these practices? I have no idea (and certainly no direct knowledge). But that's what PERM abuse looks like. Honestly, work visas should just automatically convert to a green card after 6 years.
- TeeMassive 3y ago"Apple agreed to pay up to $25 million in back pay and civil penalties to settle the DOJ allegations." This is a slap on the wrist.
- kepler1 3y agoRegardless of the issue here, I just want to say that I'm glad we put up such high standards for allowing people with skills into this country. Because if we didn't, we'd have random people just crossing the border at will and living in the country with no repercussions whatsoever. Oh wait, huh. So, why do we make skilled people prove with mountains of paperwork and credentials that they should be allowed to enter the country?
- nojvek 3y agoFB had such a case in 2018. Even though FB/Meta is hiring again and you apply with a referral link, even as US citizen you still get no responses. No email, no phone call, totally ghosted. Almost seems like their job board is to appease DOJ rules but they hire on other criteria.
- 93po 3y agoIs this only your personal experience or is there universal agreement amongst many people that there is zero response to US applicants right now?
- phendrenad2 3y ago> required all PERM position applicants to mail paper applications, even though the company permitted electronic applications for other positions. In some instances, Apple did not consider certain applications for PERM positions from Apple employees if those applications were submitted electronically > the company acknowledged in a statement that it had "unintentionally not been following the DOJ standard" I'd love to know what sequence of events led to this very archaic but unintentional violation! Should be a fun read!