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Let's finish the quote. > the intelligence & character of the masses are incomparably lower than the intelligence and character of the few who produce some thi

Let's finish the quote. > the intelligence & character of the masses are incomparably lower than the intelligence and character of the few who produce some thing valuable for the community. It doesn't strike me as crazy that a guy who was hanging out with Gödel and von Neumann all day [0] might think this way. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein#Resident_scholar_at_the_Institute_for_Advanced_Study https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein#Resident_schol...

modzu 3y ago
if you want to finish the quote it should also be taken in context. the quote is an answer to the question of why people go to war and kill each other
adventured 3y ago
People are overly charitable with Einstein because they view him as more grandfatherly and less of an asshole than most of the classic super genius types of history. That's based almost entirely on his image, which has been well sheltered, and his literal image (how he comes across in old black & white photos; oh look, golly, that's soooo cute, he has his tongue sticking out! look at that hair!). Back in reality, Einstein likely had an ego the size of a large galaxy, like all the rest. I don't know that I've ever read about someone being similarly famous and them not having an unhealthy outsized ego. The fame always wins. The masses are very commonly wrong about their adored historical figures though. Gandhi was exceptionally vile in his beliefs. Mother Teresa was a sadist that clearly enjoyed torturing people that had AIDS. FDR was a racist that put Japanese Americans in camps. Che was a sociopathic extreme homophobe and mass murderer. Napoleon was one of the great genocidal maniacs of history, almost on par with Hitler in the death and destruction he caused in attempted conquering. Bill Cosby, well, you know. And on it goes forever.
- _gabe_ 3y ago
  Perhaps you’re being a bit too uncharitable to overcompensate? I’ve never heard of this, and the only sources I can find for the claim you made about mother Teresa make claims that the organization that mother Teresa started would refuse patients pain medication out of misguided notions. I’m curious what specifically you’re referring to here. And as for: > FDR was a racist that put Japanese Americans in camps I wouldn’t go so far to say that FDR was racist for doing this. America was literally bombed and dragged into a war, and other countries were also placing civilians in internment camps. From Wikipedia: >> Japan interned 130,000 Dutch, British, and American civilians in Asia during World War II. Does this mean the Japanese were racist? No. This was world war, and countries were doing this as a source of leverage. I don’t know about the rest of your examples, but I feel like you may be being a bit uncharitable in your characterization of these circumstances. [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_internee https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_internee
  - bugglebeetle 3y ago
    FDR was very much a racist who was going along with a plot concocted by a wealthy group of agricultural interests to dispossess Japanese-American citizens and immigrants of their farmlands, under the pretense of national security: > Only hours after the Pearl Harbor attack on Dec. 7. 1941, Austin E. Anson, managing secretary of California's powerful Salinas Valley Vegetable Grower-Shipper Association, was dispatched to Washington to urge federal authorities to remove all individuals of Japanese ancestry from the West Coast. In an interview for the May 1942 Saturday Evening Post, Anson told how he drew a frightful scenario for the War and Navy departments, the attorney general and every congressman he could get to listen to him: an invading army coming ashore in Monterey Bay and advancing into the Salinas Valley while Japanese residents blew up bridges, disrupting traffic and sabotaging local defenses. > By the end of the war, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, "farm ownership by Japanese amounted to about 30 percent of their total pre-war farm operations {and} ownership transfers to non-evacuees during and after evacuation has probably reduced these farm ownerships to less than a fourth of the total pre-war Japanese land holdings, including leaseholds . . . ." Few of the internees ever received full payment for their land. https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1992/02/02/bitter-harvest/c8389b23-884d-43bd-ad34-bf7b11077135/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1992/02/02/b... This was further exposed in Korematsu vs. the US, where it was revealed that the Office of Naval Intelligence had prepared reports showing there was no actual threat, which they then hid from the courts when Japanese-American citizens sought redress through the justice system. Likewise, the FBI had already locked up or was monitoring anyone they thought was dangerous and had discredited all of the key justifications for internment: https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/blog/confession-error-solicitor-generals-mistakes-during-japanese-american-internment-cases https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/blog/confession-error-s... https://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading-room/title-list-alphabetically/r/ringle-report-on-japanese-internment.html https://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading...
    - gausswho 3y ago
      Thank you for this description and links. I had no idea the agricultural powers of California so explicitly advocated for removing the Japanese Americans.
- darklycan51 3y ago
  Einstein has been hugely whitewashed, like for example they claim he wasn't racist because of a black college visit he did where did PR speak, while ignoring the nazi like statements he did in China while talking better but also somewhat subtle racism about Japan.
- scythe 3y ago
  The claims against Mother Theresa spread particularly by Christopher Hitchens among others are false: https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/gcxpr5/saint_mother_teresa_was_documented_mass_murderer/ https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/gcxpr5/saint_mo...
  - rawgabbit 3y ago
    Thank you for the link.
- boringg 3y ago
  Bill Cosby in the same breath as Einstein, Gandhi, Mother Teresa, FDR? Wow.
- pietro72ohboy 3y ago
  > Gandhi was exceptionally vile in his beliefs. A man who brought independence to 400 million people with non-violent means was a vile man? A man who’s the “father of the nation” to 1.3 billion people was a vile man? Are you making up your own history here?
  - demondemidi 3y ago
    Gandhi also routinely slept in bed with naked young girls to prove he was celibate. Also: "In 1903, when Gandhi was in South Africa, he wrote that white people there should be "the predominating race." He also said black people "are troublesome, very dirty and live like animals."" So maybe read up a little?
    - javajosh 3y ago
      If we require that every historical person adhere to present sensibilities to be considered "great" then no-one will be considered "great". Societies routinely vacillate between permitting and punishing incest, rape, beatings, bigotry and theocracy, to name but a few things. It makes sense to me that we'd factor such matters out of our consideration - we cannot and should not hold an individual responsible for the mores of their time. Socrates was a misogynist and a pederast - but so was everyone else. Ben Franklin was an anti-semite - but so was everyone else. Einstein beat his wife - but so did everyone else. Lincoln was racist against blacks, even as he worked hard to give them rights - but this was far more progressive than most people of his era. We ought to grade people on a curve, not by modern standards. To do otherwise is a very foolish thing that puts us in the position eliminating any and all human virtue of the past. I can't help but guess that presentism was invented by a particularly ambitious PR intern.
      - demondemidi 3y ago
        > If we require that every historical person adhere to present sensibilities to be considered "great" then no-one will be considered "great" So what? You say that like it is some huge loss! I think the correct choice is to abscond from this culture of hero worship you're advocating for and see people for their good and bad qualities, and be ready to criticize them without hesitation. Is it so important to you to put someone on a pedestal? I find that activity morally nauseating. > we cannot and should not hold an individual responsible for the mores of their time That's the weakest argument. "Of their time"? Last week? Last month? 1,000 years ago? You can pick whatever date you want to justify your hero worship. Personally I don't see accepting the Neuremberg defense as an ethical (or sophisticated) position, but you do you.
- iamawacko 3y ago
  > Che was a sociopathic extreme homophobe and mass murderer The homophobic claim is patently false. He had no involvement in Cuba's treatment of gay people, and the only quote in which he even mentions gay people is about how he was bothered when a guy he liked was beat up. The homophobia accusation is mostly just peddled as a gotcha question. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5eFPgvhS60 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5eFPgvhS60

modzu 3y ago

if you want to finish the quote it should also be taken in context. the quote is an answer to the question of why people go to war and kill each other

adventured 3y ago

People are overly charitable with Einstein because they view him as more grandfatherly and less of an asshole than most of the classic super genius types of history. That's based almost entirely on his image, which has been well sheltered, and his literal image (how he comes across in old black & white photos; oh look, golly, that's soooo cute, he has his tongue sticking out! look at that hair!). Back in reality, Einstein likely had an ego the size of a large galaxy, like all the rest. I don't know that I've ever read about someone being similarly famous and them not having an unhealthy outsized ego. The fame always wins. The masses are very commonly wrong about their adored historical figures though. Gandhi was exceptionally vile in his beliefs. Mother Teresa was a sadist that clearly enjoyed torturing people that had AIDS. FDR was a racist that put Japanese Americans in camps. Che was a sociopathic extreme homophobe and mass murderer. Napoleon was one of the great genocidal maniacs of history, almost on par with Hitler in the death and destruction he caused in attempted conquering. Bill Cosby, well, you know. And on it goes forever.

_gabe_ 3y ago
Perhaps you’re being a bit too uncharitable to overcompensate? I’ve never heard of this, and the only sources I can find for the claim you made about mother Teresa make claims that the organization that mother Teresa started would refuse patients pain medication out of misguided notions. I’m curious what specifically you’re referring to here. And as for: > FDR was a racist that put Japanese Americans in camps I wouldn’t go so far to say that FDR was racist for doing this. America was literally bombed and dragged into a war, and other countries were also placing civilians in internment camps. From Wikipedia: >> Japan interned 130,000 Dutch, British, and American civilians in Asia during World War II. Does this mean the Japanese were racist? No. This was world war, and countries were doing this as a source of leverage. I don’t know about the rest of your examples, but I feel like you may be being a bit uncharitable in your characterization of these circumstances. [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_internee https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_internee
- bugglebeetle 3y ago
  FDR was very much a racist who was going along with a plot concocted by a wealthy group of agricultural interests to dispossess Japanese-American citizens and immigrants of their farmlands, under the pretense of national security: > Only hours after the Pearl Harbor attack on Dec. 7. 1941, Austin E. Anson, managing secretary of California's powerful Salinas Valley Vegetable Grower-Shipper Association, was dispatched to Washington to urge federal authorities to remove all individuals of Japanese ancestry from the West Coast. In an interview for the May 1942 Saturday Evening Post, Anson told how he drew a frightful scenario for the War and Navy departments, the attorney general and every congressman he could get to listen to him: an invading army coming ashore in Monterey Bay and advancing into the Salinas Valley while Japanese residents blew up bridges, disrupting traffic and sabotaging local defenses. > By the end of the war, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, "farm ownership by Japanese amounted to about 30 percent of their total pre-war farm operations {and} ownership transfers to non-evacuees during and after evacuation has probably reduced these farm ownerships to less than a fourth of the total pre-war Japanese land holdings, including leaseholds . . . ." Few of the internees ever received full payment for their land. https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1992/02/02/bitter-harvest/c8389b23-884d-43bd-ad34-bf7b11077135/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1992/02/02/b... This was further exposed in Korematsu vs. the US, where it was revealed that the Office of Naval Intelligence had prepared reports showing there was no actual threat, which they then hid from the courts when Japanese-American citizens sought redress through the justice system. Likewise, the FBI had already locked up or was monitoring anyone they thought was dangerous and had discredited all of the key justifications for internment: https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/blog/confession-error-solicitor-generals-mistakes-during-japanese-american-internment-cases https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/blog/confession-error-s... https://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading-room/title-list-alphabetically/r/ringle-report-on-japanese-internment.html https://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading...
  - gausswho 3y ago
    Thank you for this description and links. I had no idea the agricultural powers of California so explicitly advocated for removing the Japanese Americans.
darklycan51 3y ago
Einstein has been hugely whitewashed, like for example they claim he wasn't racist because of a black college visit he did where did PR speak, while ignoring the nazi like statements he did in China while talking better but also somewhat subtle racism about Japan.
scythe 3y ago
The claims against Mother Theresa spread particularly by Christopher Hitchens among others are false: https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/gcxpr5/saint_mother_teresa_was_documented_mass_murderer/ https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/gcxpr5/saint_mo...
- rawgabbit 3y ago
  Thank you for the link.
boringg 3y ago
Bill Cosby in the same breath as Einstein, Gandhi, Mother Teresa, FDR? Wow.
pietro72ohboy 3y ago
> Gandhi was exceptionally vile in his beliefs. A man who brought independence to 400 million people with non-violent means was a vile man? A man who’s the “father of the nation” to 1.3 billion people was a vile man? Are you making up your own history here?
- demondemidi 3y ago
  Gandhi also routinely slept in bed with naked young girls to prove he was celibate. Also: "In 1903, when Gandhi was in South Africa, he wrote that white people there should be "the predominating race." He also said black people "are troublesome, very dirty and live like animals."" So maybe read up a little?
  - javajosh 3y ago
    If we require that every historical person adhere to present sensibilities to be considered "great" then no-one will be considered "great". Societies routinely vacillate between permitting and punishing incest, rape, beatings, bigotry and theocracy, to name but a few things. It makes sense to me that we'd factor such matters out of our consideration - we cannot and should not hold an individual responsible for the mores of their time. Socrates was a misogynist and a pederast - but so was everyone else. Ben Franklin was an anti-semite - but so was everyone else. Einstein beat his wife - but so did everyone else. Lincoln was racist against blacks, even as he worked hard to give them rights - but this was far more progressive than most people of his era. We ought to grade people on a curve, not by modern standards. To do otherwise is a very foolish thing that puts us in the position eliminating any and all human virtue of the past. I can't help but guess that presentism was invented by a particularly ambitious PR intern.
    - demondemidi 3y ago
      > If we require that every historical person adhere to present sensibilities to be considered "great" then no-one will be considered "great" So what? You say that like it is some huge loss! I think the correct choice is to abscond from this culture of hero worship you're advocating for and see people for their good and bad qualities, and be ready to criticize them without hesitation. Is it so important to you to put someone on a pedestal? I find that activity morally nauseating. > we cannot and should not hold an individual responsible for the mores of their time That's the weakest argument. "Of their time"? Last week? Last month? 1,000 years ago? You can pick whatever date you want to justify your hero worship. Personally I don't see accepting the Neuremberg defense as an ethical (or sophisticated) position, but you do you.
iamawacko 3y ago
> Che was a sociopathic extreme homophobe and mass murderer The homophobic claim is patently false. He had no involvement in Cuba's treatment of gay people, and the only quote in which he even mentions gay people is about how he was bothered when a guy he liked was beat up. The homophobia accusation is mostly just peddled as a gotcha question. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5eFPgvhS60 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5eFPgvhS60