3 ms·

Man I loved this game as a kid. I wonder though ... they say it's now pure open source that's been "rewritten" from scratch. Hate to be a party pooper but is t

Man I loved this game as a kid. I wonder though ... they say it's now pure open source that's been "rewritten" from scratch. Hate to be a party pooper but is that really true? It took all of two minutes to find this in the code: https://github.com/dkfans/keeperfx/blob/master/src/engine_render.c#L4402 https://github.com/dkfans/keeperfx/blob/master/src/engine_re... //BucketKindPolygonStandard in this function could also be BucketKindPolygonSimple or BucketKindBasicUnk10 idk all 3 pretty similar int z; struct BucketKindPolygonStandard *v5; int v6; struct BasicQ *v7; if ( (ec1->field_8 & (uint16_t)(ec2->field_8 & ec3->field_8) & 0x1F8) == 0 && (ec3->view_width - ec2->view_width) * (ec1->view_height - ec2->view_height) + (ec3->view_height - ec2->view_height) * (ec2->view_width - ec1->view_width) > 0 ) { I dunno, this looks a lot like decompiled code. There are lots of other variables with names like v15, v16 etc in other parts of the code too.

thomasahle 3y ago
Do people use LLMs to "improve" decompiled code? Just plugged the above into Gpt-4 and got: // The choice of PolygonKind can be PolygonStandard, PolygonSimple, or BasicUnk10 - they are quite similar in functionality int intersectionResult; struct PolygonStandard *polygonStandard; int computationResult; struct BasicQueue *basicQueue; if ((edgeClipper1->clipMask & (uint16_t)(edgeClipper2->clipMask & edgeClipper3->clipMask) & 0x1F8) == 0 && (edgeClipper3->viewWidth - edgeClipper2->viewWidth) * (edgeClipper1->viewHeight - edgeClipper2->viewHeight) + (edgeClipper3->viewHeight - edgeClipper2->viewHeight) * (edgeClipper2->viewWidth - edgeClipper1->viewWidth) > 0) { Seems it didn't really understand "BucketKind". Neither do I to be honest.
- qqluqq 3y ago
  they became popular just a bit after I finished all the RE work, so no didn't use any for it
- galangalalgol 3y ago
  That is the first impressive thing I've seen a llm do with code. My company does not allow their use out of legal concerns so I haven't tried using them for anything since playiwith the initial gpt trial. I was not at all impressed then. Can you really just point it at your code base and ask it to improve the variable names or whatever?
  - mkoryak 3y ago
    No don't do this. Once I asked chatgpt to make some obfuscated+minified js readable for me. It did. I was blown away by how well it chose the variable names. I started looking at this code to find the prod bug, but I found other bugs that I wasn't expecting... I took a closer look and realized that the code it made was almost right, but also 5% wrong. I wouldn't have noticed the incorrectness if I wasn't debugging for several hours before and had some general idea of what the pretty printed code did and did not do.
    - drxzcl 3y ago
      You can get better results by setting up a test harness that compares to the original and feeding back the results. But then you are doing boring work and letting the llm do the fun work, which is not the point the whole thing.
    - pjerem 3y ago
      Maybe you can get achieve it by asking it to just give you the name correspondances in a table and do the renaming yourself. That’d be hardly useful in a full file with colliding names but on a single function that may be useful.
  - jerf 3y ago
    Ah, here we see the great danger of LLMs, which is that they have the ability to be confident enough to bullshit you completely successfully. I don't think this is clipping edges, although I could be wrong about that, but if all thomasahle was to put the exact above code into GPT-4 and did not go to the source and pull more out, GPT has absolutely no reason to label "z" as "intersectionResult" as it was never used in the rest of the code, same for labelling "v6" as "computationResult", and the guesses for polygonStandard and basicQueue are at best the first stab a decompiler might take, but there's probably a better name than simply reiterating the type. That's not better variable names; that's better-looking garbage. At least you know you don't know what "v7" is. With the post-LLM code you're having to poke through confident error.
- araes 3y ago
  They do now
- taway1237 3y ago
  Answering your question directly: RE is 60% of my daily work, and I don't use and don't know anyone who uses LLMs for RE. One reason is that you lose interactivity if you process code using something other than your decompiler of choice, and it's a huge problem - you want to stick to your RE "IDE". The other is that, at least in my line of work, I don't need perfect code, just to understand what's going on and maybe a few critical functions.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
TonyTrapp 3y ago
They definitely interpret things a bit differently. The main achievement here is that all the code required to run the game is now open, the game no longer jumps into original game code from the original Dungeon Keeper executable in order to function. Whether the source in itself is 100% legal is not part of that equation.
qqluqq 3y ago
it's decompiled yes, used to rely on a dll that was just the converted og exe, but now it's now fully readable code, minus maybe a few random variable names here and there, I don't believe it says anywhere it was done from scratch
ur-whale 3y ago
> I dunno, this looks a lot like decompiled code. And what if it is? At what level is using decompiled code copyright violation as opposed to just replicating an algorithm?
- Karellen 3y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design#Case_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design#Case_law
- Supermancho 3y ago
  > Connectix's successful appeal maintained that the direct disassembly and observation of proprietary code was necessary because there was no other way to determine its behavior. If it is the disassembled code, nothing will happen. There are no damages to award, so there's no reason that this would even make it into court. If it did go to court (as part of a larger case), the artifact decompiled would be proprietary. However it would be impossible to prove (and difficult to convince anyone) that the code was directly from that artifact.

thomasahle 3y ago

Do people use LLMs to "improve" decompiled code? Just plugged the above into Gpt-4 and got: // The choice of PolygonKind can be PolygonStandard, PolygonSimple, or BasicUnk10 - they are quite similar in functionality int intersectionResult; struct PolygonStandard *polygonStandard; int computationResult; struct BasicQueue *basicQueue; if ((edgeClipper1->clipMask & (uint16_t)(edgeClipper2->clipMask & edgeClipper3->clipMask) & 0x1F8) == 0 && (edgeClipper3->viewWidth - edgeClipper2->viewWidth) * (edgeClipper1->viewHeight - edgeClipper2->viewHeight) + (edgeClipper3->viewHeight - edgeClipper2->viewHeight) * (edgeClipper2->viewWidth - edgeClipper1->viewWidth) > 0) { Seems it didn't really understand "BucketKind". Neither do I to be honest.

qqluqq 3y ago
they became popular just a bit after I finished all the RE work, so no didn't use any for it
galangalalgol 3y ago
That is the first impressive thing I've seen a llm do with code. My company does not allow their use out of legal concerns so I haven't tried using them for anything since playiwith the initial gpt trial. I was not at all impressed then. Can you really just point it at your code base and ask it to improve the variable names or whatever?
- mkoryak 3y ago
  No don't do this. Once I asked chatgpt to make some obfuscated+minified js readable for me. It did. I was blown away by how well it chose the variable names. I started looking at this code to find the prod bug, but I found other bugs that I wasn't expecting... I took a closer look and realized that the code it made was almost right, but also 5% wrong. I wouldn't have noticed the incorrectness if I wasn't debugging for several hours before and had some general idea of what the pretty printed code did and did not do.
  - drxzcl 3y ago
    You can get better results by setting up a test harness that compares to the original and feeding back the results. But then you are doing boring work and letting the llm do the fun work, which is not the point the whole thing.
  - pjerem 3y ago
    Maybe you can get achieve it by asking it to just give you the name correspondances in a table and do the renaming yourself. That’d be hardly useful in a full file with colliding names but on a single function that may be useful.
- jerf 3y ago
  Ah, here we see the great danger of LLMs, which is that they have the ability to be confident enough to bullshit you completely successfully. I don't think this is clipping edges, although I could be wrong about that, but if all thomasahle was to put the exact above code into GPT-4 and did not go to the source and pull more out, GPT has absolutely no reason to label "z" as "intersectionResult" as it was never used in the rest of the code, same for labelling "v6" as "computationResult", and the guesses for polygonStandard and basicQueue are at best the first stab a decompiler might take, but there's probably a better name than simply reiterating the type. That's not better variable names; that's better-looking garbage. At least you know you don't know what "v7" is. With the post-LLM code you're having to poke through confident error.
araes 3y ago
They do now
taway1237 3y ago
Answering your question directly: RE is 60% of my daily work, and I don't use and don't know anyone who uses LLMs for RE. One reason is that you lose interactivity if you process code using something other than your decompiler of choice, and it's a huge problem - you want to stick to your RE "IDE". The other is that, at least in my line of work, I don't need perfect code, just to understand what's going on and maybe a few critical functions.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

TonyTrapp 3y ago

They definitely interpret things a bit differently. The main achievement here is that all the code required to run the game is now open, the game no longer jumps into original game code from the original Dungeon Keeper executable in order to function. Whether the source in itself is 100% legal is not part of that equation.

qqluqq 3y ago

it's decompiled yes, used to rely on a dll that was just the converted og exe, but now it's now fully readable code, minus maybe a few random variable names here and there, I don't believe it says anywhere it was done from scratch

ur-whale 3y ago

> I dunno, this looks a lot like decompiled code. And what if it is? At what level is using decompiled code copyright violation as opposed to just replicating an algorithm?

Karellen 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design#Case_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design#Case_law
Supermancho 3y ago
> Connectix's successful appeal maintained that the direct disassembly and observation of proprietary code was necessary because there was no other way to determine its behavior. If it is the disassembled code, nothing will happen. There are no damages to award, so there's no reason that this would even make it into court. If it did go to court (as part of a larger case), the artifact decompiled would be proprietary. However it would be impossible to prove (and difficult to convince anyone) that the code was directly from that artifact.