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That Macrumors thread is pretty nasty. How is it that HN has stayed so relatively civilized for so long? I'm a newbie here, but I know HN is pretty old, and it

That Macrumors thread is pretty nasty. How is it that HN has stayed so relatively civilized for so long? I'm a newbie here, but I know HN is pretty old, and it's less nasty than the oldschool forums I remember.

mahmoudhossam 3y ago
The answer is moderation, HN has some really experienced mods.
- seanw444 3y ago
  I think there's a culture on HN too that most of us enjoy and try to maintain. When a low-quality/low-effort or not at all relevant comment comes in, it gets downvoted to oblivion. Forming that culture from the beginning is the hardest part, but now that we're all used to it, maintaining it is a lot easier now.
  - brucethemoose2 3y ago
    What filters to the front page is interesting too. For instance, I just saw what was clearly a artificially promoted post in /new with 17 upvotes... and no real responses? It wasn't even flagged. I think it was shadowbanned from the front page, and everyone looking at /new just collectively knew to ignore it. Another interesting bit is the flagging/vouching system. It would be in a disaster some places, but is very effective here.
ianai 3y ago
They're more nasty. But I think it shows a wider push back against 8gb ram base models, too.
- hesdeadjim 3y ago
  Yea and rightly so, 8GB in 2023 on a “Pro” model is egregiously profit motivated.
  - brucethemoose2 3y ago
    Yeah, it was already debated 12 hours ago. My take is it costs Apple more to make an 8GB SKU (they have to package with the CPU, test, support and so on) rather than just consolidating it down to a 16GB base. Even setting user requirements aside, it makes no economic sense unless you assume Apple is motivated by planned obsolescence and upselling. But still, there's a lot of insulting and vitriol on Macrumors. Not much "8GB is fine an here's a polite, thought out reason why..." and more "8GB is fine and you are an idiot jerk complainer (insert more unrelated personal attacks) for not even seeing that in the first place," and vice versa.
  - BirAdam 3y ago
    This marketing/labeling is what I find insane. I wouldn’t be bothered at all if the Air came with 8GB standard. A machine with low storage, low RAM, low GPU core count, and so on then being labeled as Pro is just insane. It kind of makes their product lines not make sense too. Why even have these distinctions? If the entry level Air and Pro have the same specs, why make two different products? Apple clearly generates more revenue than any company I’ve ever worked for, so I should probably shut my mouth, but their entire product naming and positioning of the last several years has seemed inconsistent and childish to me.
  - jmull 3y ago
    These seems quite illogical to me. If there was no 8GB option, the price of the base model would be higher -- going by the comments, apparently $200 higher. That would kind of screw over the people who don't open 20 Lightroom tabs or similar workloads, who might want that $200 for something else. I guess people are imagining that if the 8GB option didn't exist then 16GB could be had for the same price, but that isn't rational. I think all Apple customers would quite like their prices to be lower, of course, but it's not like they are suddenly about to change from a publicly traded for-profit company to a charity organization.
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      Well, this is actually part of the (horribly, unnecessarily complicated) problem. You'll have to base your own conclusions on what feels right to you. That being said, this machine seems obviously intended to fill the gap the 13" MBP would inevitably leave. It just... doesn't feel like a compelling base-model. The M1 refresh of the Macbook Pro set a decently high watermark for the "Pro" experience, and this model feels like a compromise in many ways. It's $300 more expensive than the model it replaced, and while the chassis is certainly better, the internals on the base model are undeniably gimped. It's hard for me to understand why someone would get the 14" base model when the other M3 options are practically identical. I struggle to imagine a class of user that needs Pro Motion and active cooling, but not 16gb of memory. It's subjective, but I much prefer the old pricing model. The 13" Pro felt more like a holdout from a bygone age, not a trend that needed to be revived. Now we're here, and everyone is kinda asking why this machine exists.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
solardev 3y ago
We have a dang. (Edited for proper awesomeness)
- bityard 3y ago
  And that dang dang gives a dang.
- binkHN 3y ago
  I think it's better said as "We have a dang," in the same context as "We have a Hulk."
  - solardev 3y ago
    Good call!
rpmisms 3y ago
People who think they're smart tend to get snippy. See: Ars Technica comments. We have a constant source of humility by being reminded that there are much smarter people out there, and we have excellent moderation.
- brucethemoose2 3y ago
  Yeah. Politeness is part of the culture, but HN does have a conspicuously high chance of someone professionally involved in the discussed topic popping in.
  - rpmisms 3y ago
    Yeah, or the inventor of the technology. Seen that happen a few times. Always a treat.
vehemenz 3y ago
There is a cross section of Macrumors that behaves like tech YouTube. That is, they're obsessed with on-paper specs (rather than real-world performance) and have a hair-trigger on calling out Apple for insufficient spec bumps. 8GB is still sufficient for many workloads, and where it isn't, memory optimization by macOS and fast SSD swap can make up the difference. I think many people fail to realize that the starting price is dependent on the 8GB configuration, and if Apple bumps it up, then we'll have the same people complaining about the entry-level price. There's no winning with some people.
- brucethemoose2 3y ago
  > the starting price is dependent on the 8GB configuration I disagree with this. I posit that it would save Apple money to chop off the 8GB SKU and sell the 16GB model (with the smaller SSD) as a base. This wasn't necessarily the case with the M1/M2. But 8GB of DRAM is dirt cheap these days.
richardw 3y ago
It used to be incredibly civilised and while that has drifted it still has a memory. Plus amazing mod, who legend says can fork himself at will. Here is written the infinitely patient guidance of dang: https://news.ycombinator.com/posts?id=dang https://news.ycombinator.com/posts?id=dang Here are the guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

mahmoudhossam 3y ago

The answer is moderation, HN has some really experienced mods.

seanw444 3y ago
I think there's a culture on HN too that most of us enjoy and try to maintain. When a low-quality/low-effort or not at all relevant comment comes in, it gets downvoted to oblivion. Forming that culture from the beginning is the hardest part, but now that we're all used to it, maintaining it is a lot easier now.
- brucethemoose2 3y ago
  What filters to the front page is interesting too. For instance, I just saw what was clearly a artificially promoted post in /new with 17 upvotes... and no real responses? It wasn't even flagged. I think it was shadowbanned from the front page, and everyone looking at /new just collectively knew to ignore it. Another interesting bit is the flagging/vouching system. It would be in a disaster some places, but is very effective here.

ianai 3y ago

They're more nasty. But I think it shows a wider push back against 8gb ram base models, too.

hesdeadjim 3y ago
Yea and rightly so, 8GB in 2023 on a “Pro” model is egregiously profit motivated.
- brucethemoose2 3y ago
  Yeah, it was already debated 12 hours ago. My take is it costs Apple more to make an 8GB SKU (they have to package with the CPU, test, support and so on) rather than just consolidating it down to a 16GB base. Even setting user requirements aside, it makes no economic sense unless you assume Apple is motivated by planned obsolescence and upselling. But still, there's a lot of insulting and vitriol on Macrumors. Not much "8GB is fine an here's a polite, thought out reason why..." and more "8GB is fine and you are an idiot jerk complainer (insert more unrelated personal attacks) for not even seeing that in the first place," and vice versa.
- BirAdam 3y ago
  This marketing/labeling is what I find insane. I wouldn’t be bothered at all if the Air came with 8GB standard. A machine with low storage, low RAM, low GPU core count, and so on then being labeled as Pro is just insane. It kind of makes their product lines not make sense too. Why even have these distinctions? If the entry level Air and Pro have the same specs, why make two different products? Apple clearly generates more revenue than any company I’ve ever worked for, so I should probably shut my mouth, but their entire product naming and positioning of the last several years has seemed inconsistent and childish to me.
- jmull 3y ago
  These seems quite illogical to me. If there was no 8GB option, the price of the base model would be higher -- going by the comments, apparently $200 higher. That would kind of screw over the people who don't open 20 Lightroom tabs or similar workloads, who might want that $200 for something else. I guess people are imagining that if the 8GB option didn't exist then 16GB could be had for the same price, but that isn't rational. I think all Apple customers would quite like their prices to be lower, of course, but it's not like they are suddenly about to change from a publicly traded for-profit company to a charity organization.
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    Well, this is actually part of the (horribly, unnecessarily complicated) problem. You'll have to base your own conclusions on what feels right to you. That being said, this machine seems obviously intended to fill the gap the 13" MBP would inevitably leave. It just... doesn't feel like a compelling base-model. The M1 refresh of the Macbook Pro set a decently high watermark for the "Pro" experience, and this model feels like a compromise in many ways. It's $300 more expensive than the model it replaced, and while the chassis is certainly better, the internals on the base model are undeniably gimped. It's hard for me to understand why someone would get the 14" base model when the other M3 options are practically identical. I struggle to imagine a class of user that needs Pro Motion and active cooling, but not 16gb of memory. It's subjective, but I much prefer the old pricing model. The 13" Pro felt more like a holdout from a bygone age, not a trend that needed to be revived. Now we're here, and everyone is kinda asking why this machine exists.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

solardev 3y ago

We have a dang. (Edited for proper awesomeness)

bityard 3y ago
And that dang dang gives a dang.
binkHN 3y ago
I think it's better said as "We have a dang," in the same context as "We have a Hulk."
- solardev 3y ago
  Good call!

rpmisms 3y ago

People who think they're smart tend to get snippy. See: Ars Technica comments. We have a constant source of humility by being reminded that there are much smarter people out there, and we have excellent moderation.

brucethemoose2 3y ago
Yeah. Politeness is part of the culture, but HN does have a conspicuously high chance of someone professionally involved in the discussed topic popping in.
- rpmisms 3y ago
  Yeah, or the inventor of the technology. Seen that happen a few times. Always a treat.

vehemenz 3y ago

There is a cross section of Macrumors that behaves like tech YouTube. That is, they're obsessed with on-paper specs (rather than real-world performance) and have a hair-trigger on calling out Apple for insufficient spec bumps. 8GB is still sufficient for many workloads, and where it isn't, memory optimization by macOS and fast SSD swap can make up the difference. I think many people fail to realize that the starting price is dependent on the 8GB configuration, and if Apple bumps it up, then we'll have the same people complaining about the entry-level price. There's no winning with some people.

brucethemoose2 3y ago
> the starting price is dependent on the 8GB configuration I disagree with this. I posit that it would save Apple money to chop off the 8GB SKU and sell the 16GB model (with the smaller SSD) as a base. This wasn't necessarily the case with the M1/M2. But 8GB of DRAM is dirt cheap these days.

richardw 3y ago

It used to be incredibly civilised and while that has drifted it still has a memory. Plus amazing mod, who legend says can fork himself at will. Here is written the infinitely patient guidance of dang: https://news.ycombinator.com/posts?id=dang https://news.ycombinator.com/posts?id=dang Here are the guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html