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Welcome to Sweden :) Unions are strong here which in general is a good thing! You can't also fire people just for willing to join or create a union! This is

Welcome to Sweden :) Unions are strong here which in general is a good thing! You can't also fire people just for willing to join or create a union! This is not the U S of A. Were you can get fired for stuff which you have the right to do. I hope the unions will win soon! I my self joined the https://www.sverigesingenjorer.se/in-english/ https://www.sverigesingenjorer.se/in-english/

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
rob74 3y ago
Good for Sweden! But OTOH, it's sad to see the international race to the bottom: Tesla will of course not build a factory in Sweden, where the union representation rate is 88%, but in Germany, which theoretically has a very similar collective bargaining model, but where the rate has fallen to 54% (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_agreement_coverage#By_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_agreement_coverage#...).
- troupe 3y ago
  Well it makes sense to NOT build a factory where the workers are prohibited from painting your cars. If the unions see this as a good thing then it is a win for everyone. Tesla build factories where people will work on their cars and Swedish unions don't have to turn down work that is available in their country.
  - krisoft 3y ago
    > where the workers are prohibited from painting your cars It is not like this is a fact of life which is outside of tesla's control. All they need to do is agree on a collective agreement and their troubles go away. Their refusal to even negotiate is the source of their problem. "When in Rome, Do as the Romans Do" When in Sweden....
    - scarab92 3y ago
      Manufacturers are leaving Sweden. They produce fewer cars now than they did 50 years ago. The range of negotiated outcomes that would be attractive to manufacturers would all involve pay cuts. There’s no point engaging in negotiations unless the union can first accept that.
    - troupe 3y ago
      It's not like it is a fact of life that is outside of the unions control either. If they wanted the work, they could let people work on Tesla vehicles. If they don't need the work, then there isn't any reason to do so. > "When in Rome, Do as the Romans Do" When in Sweden.... But you can also choose where you want to go and that sounds like what Tesla is doing. They aren't forcing Swedish unions to do anything that Swedish unions don't want to do. And Swedish unions aren't making Telsa do something they don't want to do. Sounds like a win win for everyone.
  - Gud 3y ago
    Sweden has a long history of high quality manufacturing, spawning world renowned companies like Volvo, Astra, SAAB, ABB(ASEA), Bahco, Nobel, etc, etc, etc. If Tesla doesn’t want to put up an assembly line in Sweden because their management is too stupid and greedy to see the advantage of a unionized workforce, it’s their loss.
    - scarab92 3y ago
      Unionised workforces are almost never a good thing from a productivity and flexibility perspective. You’ll never see modern manufacturing companies willingly become a union shop, it’s not in their best interest. The rare times it does happen, it’s always against the wishes of management.
      - hef19898 3y ago
        Because management is obviously always right... Also, all German car manufavturers are unionized, every single one of them. Just to pick one example were it works out rather well with an unionized and collectively bargained workforce.
      - Gud 3y ago
        That’s strange, more or less all countries that are wealthy have a unionized workforce. And by wealthy countries, I don’t mean countries where a select few have all the money and power and the working man is struggling. I would absolutely prefer to live in a country where my fellow man work for a “non-productive” factory in Sweden, or any other advanced European economy, than in the US. And quite frankly, if management wants to exploit their workers, they can go fuck themselves.
        scarab92 3y ago
        Actually most developed countries only have very small unionised workforces. The OECD average is 9% (rising to 17% if you include public sector). Moreover, union membership is rapidly falling. Every OECD country except Spain and Belgium are losing union members faster than they are being added. Unions don’t really make sense for employers, and typically don’t make sense for high skilled workers either. While I’m sure that many low skilled workers prefer them, it’s the companies and higher skilled workers who decide where businesses operate.
- anon23432343 3y ago
  And since all the chaos in the world more and more people are joining unions again in germany... The Tesla factory in germany has also big problems now... Google the german meet industry were people who prepare meat are sleeping in tents in the forest...
- vages 3y ago
  Tesla may go to Germany, but Scandinavia and the Nordic countries are still very good places to create factories. Highly skilled labor is easy to come by, and the top earners make less than their colleagues in the US. These are only a few of the many reasons why it’s very easy to get (filthy) rich in the Nordic countries: https://youtu.be/A9UmdY0E8hU?si=6o3vs2Wu6eNM_h1h&t=738 https://youtu.be/A9UmdY0E8hU?si=6o3vs2Wu6eNM_h1h&t=738
spandextwins 3y ago
I was a member of a huge union for a long time and they don't do anything if you're fired or laid off. Because you aren't in the union anymore. But they loved collecting dues. I wonder where all that money goes? There must be a way to find out.
- tephra 3y ago
  Indeed you can. All Swedish unions will publish annual reports that include information on what they've done and what the money has been spent on. Here are all the reports for the largest union in Sweden for example: https://www.unionen.se/filer/broschyr/unionens-verksamhetsberattelse https://www.unionen.se/filer/broschyr/unionens-verksamhetsbe...
- toyg 3y ago
  > they don't do anything if you're fired or laid off. Because you aren't in the union anymore That's... not how it works, in decent unions at least. In fact, in many sectors in Europe the unions will come out swinging only when layoffs are on the cards. And union membership is not necessarily tied to a job, often people remain union members as long as they stay in the same sector (some unions even allow non-sector members).
- anon23432343 3y ago
  Not sure which Union you are in. But if you get fired the union usually checks for you if you were fired in a correct way. If you pay into a A-Kasa and a union you get more unemployed benefits. So not sure what you mean that they don't do anything...
- piva00 3y ago
  What country and union?
- victorbjorklund 3y ago
  Part of the money is transferred to the Social Democratic Party directly or indirectly (for example via ABF).
  - 3y ago
waihtis 3y ago
The Nordic countries must adapt away from this pre-globalization mentality or have all of their assets slowly withered away by more flexible economies. The same exact problem applies to Finland where I'm from. Euro-area economies are stagnant or shrinking whilst US economy is churning onwards like a madman. They will buy all of our assets away over time unless we start seriously competing. Sad, but this is the only choice now that we've chosen to participate in the global economy.
- vGPU 3y ago
  Or they could refuse to accept it, raise import taxes to 500%, and thrive just fine.
- bigfudge 3y ago
  Or we could choose to prioritise humans over the meaningless growth figures the US values. When the median income has barely changed or even shrunk overall growth number is irrelevant. In fact it's worse than irrelevant — it means your society is more uneven, which has many second order costs. What we actually need to do is develop a political and economic language which values things people actually care about.
  - bjornsing 3y ago
    One thing I care about as a Swedish engineer is interesting work on the forefront of technology. Sadly that’s also been sacrificed in the Nordic model. I very much agree with the Finish parent that we need to adapt our societies. It’s not just about economic standard of living, it’s about staying relevant. In fact I would even go further: it’s an ethical question to me. I see the holding back of ambitious, entrepreneurial people in order to preserve “social stability” as increasingly unethical.
    - sgu999 3y ago
      > One thing I care about as a Swedish engineer is interesting work on the forefront of technology. Do you have concrete examples? I can imagine that if you're working on avionics Sweden might not be the best place, but otherwise it really doesn't seem to be lacking opportunities for a small country.
bjornsing 3y ago
I recently left Sveriges Ingenjörer. I don’t agree that strong unions is only a good thing. I hope Tesla will prevail, or leave Sweden so the union bigwigs (and Swedes in general) get something to think about.
- guax 3y ago
  If only we had other places with low union power to compare to how that played out for the workers.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

rob74 3y ago

Good for Sweden! But OTOH, it's sad to see the international race to the bottom: Tesla will of course not build a factory in Sweden, where the union representation rate is 88%, but in Germany, which theoretically has a very similar collective bargaining model, but where the rate has fallen to 54% (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_agreement_coverage#By_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_agreement_coverage#...).

troupe 3y ago
Well it makes sense to NOT build a factory where the workers are prohibited from painting your cars. If the unions see this as a good thing then it is a win for everyone. Tesla build factories where people will work on their cars and Swedish unions don't have to turn down work that is available in their country.
- krisoft 3y ago
  > where the workers are prohibited from painting your cars It is not like this is a fact of life which is outside of tesla's control. All they need to do is agree on a collective agreement and their troubles go away. Their refusal to even negotiate is the source of their problem. "When in Rome, Do as the Romans Do" When in Sweden....
  - scarab92 3y ago
    Manufacturers are leaving Sweden. They produce fewer cars now than they did 50 years ago. The range of negotiated outcomes that would be attractive to manufacturers would all involve pay cuts. There’s no point engaging in negotiations unless the union can first accept that.
  - troupe 3y ago
    It's not like it is a fact of life that is outside of the unions control either. If they wanted the work, they could let people work on Tesla vehicles. If they don't need the work, then there isn't any reason to do so. > "When in Rome, Do as the Romans Do" When in Sweden.... But you can also choose where you want to go and that sounds like what Tesla is doing. They aren't forcing Swedish unions to do anything that Swedish unions don't want to do. And Swedish unions aren't making Telsa do something they don't want to do. Sounds like a win win for everyone.
- Gud 3y ago
  Sweden has a long history of high quality manufacturing, spawning world renowned companies like Volvo, Astra, SAAB, ABB(ASEA), Bahco, Nobel, etc, etc, etc. If Tesla doesn’t want to put up an assembly line in Sweden because their management is too stupid and greedy to see the advantage of a unionized workforce, it’s their loss.
  - scarab92 3y ago
    Unionised workforces are almost never a good thing from a productivity and flexibility perspective. You’ll never see modern manufacturing companies willingly become a union shop, it’s not in their best interest. The rare times it does happen, it’s always against the wishes of management.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Because management is obviously always right... Also, all German car manufavturers are unionized, every single one of them. Just to pick one example were it works out rather well with an unionized and collectively bargained workforce.
    - Gud 3y ago
      That’s strange, more or less all countries that are wealthy have a unionized workforce. And by wealthy countries, I don’t mean countries where a select few have all the money and power and the working man is struggling. I would absolutely prefer to live in a country where my fellow man work for a “non-productive” factory in Sweden, or any other advanced European economy, than in the US. And quite frankly, if management wants to exploit their workers, they can go fuck themselves.
      - scarab92 3y ago
        Actually most developed countries only have very small unionised workforces. The OECD average is 9% (rising to 17% if you include public sector). Moreover, union membership is rapidly falling. Every OECD country except Spain and Belgium are losing union members faster than they are being added. Unions don’t really make sense for employers, and typically don’t make sense for high skilled workers either. While I’m sure that many low skilled workers prefer them, it’s the companies and higher skilled workers who decide where businesses operate.
anon23432343 3y ago
And since all the chaos in the world more and more people are joining unions again in germany... The Tesla factory in germany has also big problems now... Google the german meet industry were people who prepare meat are sleeping in tents in the forest...
vages 3y ago
Tesla may go to Germany, but Scandinavia and the Nordic countries are still very good places to create factories. Highly skilled labor is easy to come by, and the top earners make less than their colleagues in the US. These are only a few of the many reasons why it’s very easy to get (filthy) rich in the Nordic countries: https://youtu.be/A9UmdY0E8hU?si=6o3vs2Wu6eNM_h1h&t=738 https://youtu.be/A9UmdY0E8hU?si=6o3vs2Wu6eNM_h1h&t=738

spandextwins 3y ago

I was a member of a huge union for a long time and they don't do anything if you're fired or laid off. Because you aren't in the union anymore. But they loved collecting dues. I wonder where all that money goes? There must be a way to find out.

tephra 3y ago
Indeed you can. All Swedish unions will publish annual reports that include information on what they've done and what the money has been spent on. Here are all the reports for the largest union in Sweden for example: https://www.unionen.se/filer/broschyr/unionens-verksamhetsberattelse https://www.unionen.se/filer/broschyr/unionens-verksamhetsbe...
toyg 3y ago
> they don't do anything if you're fired or laid off. Because you aren't in the union anymore That's... not how it works, in decent unions at least. In fact, in many sectors in Europe the unions will come out swinging only when layoffs are on the cards. And union membership is not necessarily tied to a job, often people remain union members as long as they stay in the same sector (some unions even allow non-sector members).
anon23432343 3y ago
Not sure which Union you are in. But if you get fired the union usually checks for you if you were fired in a correct way. If you pay into a A-Kasa and a union you get more unemployed benefits. So not sure what you mean that they don't do anything...
piva00 3y ago
What country and union?
victorbjorklund 3y ago
Part of the money is transferred to the Social Democratic Party directly or indirectly (for example via ABF).
- 3y ago

waihtis 3y ago

The Nordic countries must adapt away from this pre-globalization mentality or have all of their assets slowly withered away by more flexible economies. The same exact problem applies to Finland where I'm from. Euro-area economies are stagnant or shrinking whilst US economy is churning onwards like a madman. They will buy all of our assets away over time unless we start seriously competing. Sad, but this is the only choice now that we've chosen to participate in the global economy.

vGPU 3y ago
Or they could refuse to accept it, raise import taxes to 500%, and thrive just fine.
bigfudge 3y ago
Or we could choose to prioritise humans over the meaningless growth figures the US values. When the median income has barely changed or even shrunk overall growth number is irrelevant. In fact it's worse than irrelevant — it means your society is more uneven, which has many second order costs. What we actually need to do is develop a political and economic language which values things people actually care about.
- bjornsing 3y ago
  One thing I care about as a Swedish engineer is interesting work on the forefront of technology. Sadly that’s also been sacrificed in the Nordic model. I very much agree with the Finish parent that we need to adapt our societies. It’s not just about economic standard of living, it’s about staying relevant. In fact I would even go further: it’s an ethical question to me. I see the holding back of ambitious, entrepreneurial people in order to preserve “social stability” as increasingly unethical.
  - sgu999 3y ago
    > One thing I care about as a Swedish engineer is interesting work on the forefront of technology. Do you have concrete examples? I can imagine that if you're working on avionics Sweden might not be the best place, but otherwise it really doesn't seem to be lacking opportunities for a small country.

bjornsing 3y ago

I recently left Sveriges Ingenjörer. I don’t agree that strong unions is only a good thing. I hope Tesla will prevail, or leave Sweden so the union bigwigs (and Swedes in general) get something to think about.

guax 3y ago
If only we had other places with low union power to compare to how that played out for the workers.