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If someone else doesn't understand why painters would have a problem with Tesla (like me), you might be interested in this: https://www.ifmetall.se/aktuellt/tes

If someone else doesn't understand why painters would have a problem with Tesla (like me), you might be interested in this: https://www.ifmetall.se/aktuellt/tesla/background-information-on-if-metalls-conflict-at-tesla/ https://www.ifmetall.se/aktuellt/tesla/background-informatio...

throw__away7391 3y ago
This is not very informative at all, the first sentence is a vague statement about “decent and safe working conditions” without any detail or elaboration and the rest is basically an ad for the union complete with a “join today” call to action.
- Kbelicius 3y ago
  It directly answers the question why this trade union is taking industrial action against tesla. Because tesla refuses to negotiate a collective agreement with its employees. Seems quite informative.
  - yunohn 3y ago
    I support unionization, but I still wouldn’t call a single sentence saying “we need a collective agreement” as “informative”. I would expect some details around what exactly is causing the safety issues they claim.
    - beepbooptheory 3y ago
      Why do you expect that here?
      - emmet 3y ago
        what, you don't expect unions to release pamphlets to appease random weirdos on the internet?
    - Kbelicius 3y ago
      I don't see them claiming that there are safety issues in Tesla factories.
    - sertbdfgbnfgsd 3y ago
      [flagged]
    - znpy 3y ago
      Are you from the US, by chance? Collective agreements / collective bargaining are very common in europe, and their purpose is to establish a baseline of guarantees, compensation and generally workers rights. Collective agreements are also incredibly common (in my eu country they cover like 98% of the workers). The main reason for a company to avoid those is because of the intention to offer lower rights, worse pay, and less guarantees (job security / protection from discrimination etc). These articles from Sweden give those concepts for granted because they usually are taken for granted in most Europe.
      - robertlagrant 3y ago
        This isn't about rights; rights are in law or constitutions. This is just about mutual contractual obligations.
    - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
      What you’re asking for is in the article. The “single sentence” is actually three paragraphs which explain why this is a concern. > what exactly is causing the safety issues they claim This is in the third of those three paragraphs in the article: > The collective agreements are negotiated on a sector-by-sector basis, and employees are guaranteed the wages and working conditions that are standard across the sector. This allows for companies to operate on a level playing field, while avoiding the risk of any one employer distorting competition in the sector by imposing poor conditions on their employees. Tesla doesn’t allow the employees to work under the same conditions as dictated by the agreed-upon standards.
- guerrilla 3y ago
  > a vague statement about “decent and safe working conditions” There's nothing vague about it given the context. They mean standard Swedish working conditions, like the deals they have (and everyone else has (literally 90% of workers)) everywhere else. The precise conditions of collective agreements vary somewhat but overall are pretty uniform per sector so everyone here knows what they're talking about. Unfortunately I can't find you an English article for what they're talking about but you can try your hand at translating this one [1] for some introductory information. 1. https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbetsmilj%C3%B6 https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbetsmilj%C3%B6
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- rewmie 3y ago
  > This is not very informative at all, (...) It seems reading comprehension isn't your forte. Here's the very first paragraph of the article you're accusing of not being very informative. > The main reason for IF Metall to take industrial action at Tesla is to ensure that our members have decent and safe working conditions. Over a long period of time, we have attempted to discuss with Tesla the signing of a collective agreement, yet without success. Now we see no solution other than to take industrial action. What exactly do you struggle to understand?
  - 7734128 3y ago
    Onödigt otrevligt.
- dalbasal 3y ago
  You are reading one side of the dispute's statement. That said, yes, it doesn't sound like their on specific demands, at least currently. They want Tesla to "accept the swedish labour model." "Decent and safe working conditions" is the union's general raisin d'etre. Their role, general goal, etc. It would be like Tesla saying they want to "profitably manufacture vehicles." Just a general description of what they do... and it's fine if they were to state it while describing their position.
dalbasal 3y ago
So it sounds like the action isn't about particulars, at least not at this point. They are describing the dispute as being about general principles afaict. That Tesla should accept the "swedish labour model" in general. They emphasize that it's an non-disruptive model and good for business. This stuff is all context(that I don't have. Otherwise it's just a generic "unions or not" debate unrelated to Tesla, Sweden or 2023. That said... US companies seem at aeas with these sorts of issues in Europe. In china, companies either stay out or bite the bullet and play by Chinese rules. In Europe, especially around labour issues... American companies seem to always "rebel." It's as if local labour laws just aren't taken into prior account... and companies are caught surprised by the inevitable. This doesn't really happen outside of Europe, nor for non-labour issues like environmental regs. What is this? How/why?
- rsynnott 3y ago
  Some companies absolutely try it for environmental regs, too. I think what you're possibly seeing here is that where a multinational tries labour abuses, the response is typically very messy and public, whereas only the very most extreme _regulatory_ offences will be particularly publicly visible (typically where the company tries to defy the regulator after being caught red-handed). More commonly they'll be told what they need to fix and possibly fined.
  - bigfudge 3y ago
    Sad the same isn't true in the UK where amazon is happily abusing the spirit (and perhaps also the letter - IANAL, don't sue me) of our already weakened labour laws.
- bjornsing 3y ago
  There is nothing illegal about operating without a collective labour agreement in Sweden. For example, I’m born in Sweden and have worked here for 20+ years and I don’t think I’ve ever had an employer with a collective labor agreement. Among tech startups and smaller companies it’s quite rare, and when I’ve worked for larger companies I’ve incorporated and contracted, largely to get away from the negative effects of unions and job security: absurdly low pay.
bjornsing 3y ago
From that page: > The main reason for IF Metall to take industrial action at Tesla is to ensure that our members have decent and safe working conditions. I’m Swedish and have been following this closely. I’ve yet to see anything that indicates either a) that Tesla employees do not have decent and safe working conditions or b) that Tesla employees themselves want a collective agreement with IF Metall. In fact Tesla has stated that their agreement is better for employees than the one the union IF Metall is trying to impose. There are also statements from Tesla mechanics in the press to the same effect, e.g. because they currently get stock options. To me it’s quite obvious that this is about defending “the Swedish model”, a semi-socialist labour market system where compensation is decided primarily in negotiations between cartels of unions and cartels of large employers. (Individuals can negotiate their own salaries, but in practice only within this reference frame of collective bargaining.)
- _jal 3y ago
  > To me it’s quite obvious that this is about defending “the Swedish model" Of course it is. And what's wrong with that? Mr. Freeze Peach doesn't seem to complain about that when it is China calling the shots. If he wants to play in Sweden, he can play by local rules.
  - bjornsing 3y ago
    Copy-paste from another comment of mine: There is nothing illegal about operating without a collective labour agreement in Sweden. For example, I’m born in Sweden and have worked here for 20+ years and I don’t think I’ve ever had an employer with a collective labor agreement. Among tech startups and smaller companies it’s quite rare, and when I’ve worked for larger companies I’ve incorporated and contracted, largely to get away from the negative effects of unions and job security: absurdly low pay.
    - _jal 3y ago
      Why are you pretending I said anything about it being illegal? I said nothing about law.
- 3y ago

throw__away7391 3y ago

This is not very informative at all, the first sentence is a vague statement about “decent and safe working conditions” without any detail or elaboration and the rest is basically an ad for the union complete with a “join today” call to action.

Kbelicius 3y ago
It directly answers the question why this trade union is taking industrial action against tesla. Because tesla refuses to negotiate a collective agreement with its employees. Seems quite informative.
- yunohn 3y ago
  I support unionization, but I still wouldn’t call a single sentence saying “we need a collective agreement” as “informative”. I would expect some details around what exactly is causing the safety issues they claim.
  - beepbooptheory 3y ago
    Why do you expect that here?
    - emmet 3y ago
      what, you don't expect unions to release pamphlets to appease random weirdos on the internet?
  - Kbelicius 3y ago
    I don't see them claiming that there are safety issues in Tesla factories.
  - sertbdfgbnfgsd 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - znpy 3y ago
    Are you from the US, by chance? Collective agreements / collective bargaining are very common in europe, and their purpose is to establish a baseline of guarantees, compensation and generally workers rights. Collective agreements are also incredibly common (in my eu country they cover like 98% of the workers). The main reason for a company to avoid those is because of the intention to offer lower rights, worse pay, and less guarantees (job security / protection from discrimination etc). These articles from Sweden give those concepts for granted because they usually are taken for granted in most Europe.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      This isn't about rights; rights are in law or constitutions. This is just about mutual contractual obligations.
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
    What you’re asking for is in the article. The “single sentence” is actually three paragraphs which explain why this is a concern. > what exactly is causing the safety issues they claim This is in the third of those three paragraphs in the article: > The collective agreements are negotiated on a sector-by-sector basis, and employees are guaranteed the wages and working conditions that are standard across the sector. This allows for companies to operate on a level playing field, while avoiding the risk of any one employer distorting competition in the sector by imposing poor conditions on their employees. Tesla doesn’t allow the employees to work under the same conditions as dictated by the agreed-upon standards.
guerrilla 3y ago
> a vague statement about “decent and safe working conditions” There's nothing vague about it given the context. They mean standard Swedish working conditions, like the deals they have (and everyone else has (literally 90% of workers)) everywhere else. The precise conditions of collective agreements vary somewhat but overall are pretty uniform per sector so everyone here knows what they're talking about. Unfortunately I can't find you an English article for what they're talking about but you can try your hand at translating this one [1] for some introductory information. 1. https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbetsmilj%C3%B6 https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbetsmilj%C3%B6
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
rewmie 3y ago
> This is not very informative at all, (...) It seems reading comprehension isn't your forte. Here's the very first paragraph of the article you're accusing of not being very informative. > The main reason for IF Metall to take industrial action at Tesla is to ensure that our members have decent and safe working conditions. Over a long period of time, we have attempted to discuss with Tesla the signing of a collective agreement, yet without success. Now we see no solution other than to take industrial action. What exactly do you struggle to understand?
- 7734128 3y ago
  Onödigt otrevligt.
dalbasal 3y ago
You are reading one side of the dispute's statement. That said, yes, it doesn't sound like their on specific demands, at least currently. They want Tesla to "accept the swedish labour model." "Decent and safe working conditions" is the union's general raisin d'etre. Their role, general goal, etc. It would be like Tesla saying they want to "profitably manufacture vehicles." Just a general description of what they do... and it's fine if they were to state it while describing their position.

dalbasal 3y ago

So it sounds like the action isn't about particulars, at least not at this point. They are describing the dispute as being about general principles afaict. That Tesla should accept the "swedish labour model" in general. They emphasize that it's an non-disruptive model and good for business. This stuff is all context(that I don't have. Otherwise it's just a generic "unions or not" debate unrelated to Tesla, Sweden or 2023. That said... US companies seem at aeas with these sorts of issues in Europe. In china, companies either stay out or bite the bullet and play by Chinese rules. In Europe, especially around labour issues... American companies seem to always "rebel." It's as if local labour laws just aren't taken into prior account... and companies are caught surprised by the inevitable. This doesn't really happen outside of Europe, nor for non-labour issues like environmental regs. What is this? How/why?

rsynnott 3y ago
Some companies absolutely try it for environmental regs, too. I think what you're possibly seeing here is that where a multinational tries labour abuses, the response is typically very messy and public, whereas only the very most extreme _regulatory_ offences will be particularly publicly visible (typically where the company tries to defy the regulator after being caught red-handed). More commonly they'll be told what they need to fix and possibly fined.
- bigfudge 3y ago
  Sad the same isn't true in the UK where amazon is happily abusing the spirit (and perhaps also the letter - IANAL, don't sue me) of our already weakened labour laws.
bjornsing 3y ago
There is nothing illegal about operating without a collective labour agreement in Sweden. For example, I’m born in Sweden and have worked here for 20+ years and I don’t think I’ve ever had an employer with a collective labor agreement. Among tech startups and smaller companies it’s quite rare, and when I’ve worked for larger companies I’ve incorporated and contracted, largely to get away from the negative effects of unions and job security: absurdly low pay.

bjornsing 3y ago

From that page: > The main reason for IF Metall to take industrial action at Tesla is to ensure that our members have decent and safe working conditions. I’m Swedish and have been following this closely. I’ve yet to see anything that indicates either a) that Tesla employees do not have decent and safe working conditions or b) that Tesla employees themselves want a collective agreement with IF Metall. In fact Tesla has stated that their agreement is better for employees than the one the union IF Metall is trying to impose. There are also statements from Tesla mechanics in the press to the same effect, e.g. because they currently get stock options. To me it’s quite obvious that this is about defending “the Swedish model”, a semi-socialist labour market system where compensation is decided primarily in negotiations between cartels of unions and cartels of large employers. (Individuals can negotiate their own salaries, but in practice only within this reference frame of collective bargaining.)

_jal 3y ago
> To me it’s quite obvious that this is about defending “the Swedish model" Of course it is. And what's wrong with that? Mr. Freeze Peach doesn't seem to complain about that when it is China calling the shots. If he wants to play in Sweden, he can play by local rules.
- bjornsing 3y ago
  Copy-paste from another comment of mine: There is nothing illegal about operating without a collective labour agreement in Sweden. For example, I’m born in Sweden and have worked here for 20+ years and I don’t think I’ve ever had an employer with a collective labor agreement. Among tech startups and smaller companies it’s quite rare, and when I’ve worked for larger companies I’ve incorporated and contracted, largely to get away from the negative effects of unions and job security: absurdly low pay.
  - _jal 3y ago
    Why are you pretending I said anything about it being illegal? I said nothing about law.
3y ago