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Why is x11 so backwards? On Wayland, each window is a composer, each component that makes up a screen is a compositor. Don't mid them up. Simply put each windo

Why is x11 so backwards? On Wayland, each window is a composer, each component that makes up a screen is a compositor. Don't mid them up. Simply put each window manages their own process tree as its much cleaner. Its very simple. What you need to do is simply install dbus-systemd and issue SummonPoettering which will give you a clean docker workspace. Simply put this is far superior to X11. In short on Wayland, you only need to push one button to kill an errant window - the power button

notpushkin 3y ago
Not if running on Ubuntu! They've replaced Docker with Snap, so you will have to dbus into ~/snap and patch the hook into the package. Of course, this will not work with the inferior Flatpak apps (which you shouldn't be using anyway as they are buggy and not as cool as snaps).
- password4321 3y ago
  I left Ubuntu because of snap, still haven't heard anything positive so seems like the right move so far.
  - notpushkin 3y ago
    Unironically: yeah, I've switched to Debian everywhere and never looked back.
tuyiown 3y ago
Well a definitive press of the power button seems the good way of killing a window, as such notion simply shouldn't exist. One could also argue that those who complains in sarcasm about such unnecessary longings should do the same.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
dig1 3y ago
In the future, someone will (re)invent wayland-compose.yaml and announce that as the second-best thing after sliced bread. Imagine that technology - each window is a separate container! Our ancestors would be so proud. Then, you start your browser via "wayland-compose up" and that will load 50 additional containers via dbus-systemd, because "that is the only proper way" to run your application.
- pests 3y ago
  And we thought chrome was genius to introduce one process per tab. One container per tab, its better than one VM per tab.
bigbillheck 3y ago
> Why is x11 so backwards? Hasn't it been pretty much ossified for the last 30 years?
spellcard199 3y ago
Under Wayland with Gnome (it's gnome-specific), I recently learned you can kill windows by using Looking Glass: // 1. Open looking glass: Alt+F2 > lg // 2. Use picker to pick window (button on the top left corner). // 3. Now an object r(0) of type MetaSurfaceActor is available in the // gjs console (or some other number if you've already used it). // To get pid: r(0).get_parent().get_parent().get_meta_window().get_pid() // To kill window and process: r(0).get_parent().get_parent().get_meta_window().kill() Reference for what those .get_parent() refer to: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/tree/fc1de744/src/compositor https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/tree/fc1de744/src/co...
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
  ...wait, does Wayland not have a drop in replacement for xkill?
  - calvinmorrison 3y ago
    Simply jump into a Javascript runtime and run some functions from your runner! BTW your entire desktop is just an electron app rendering Wayland in WebGL.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - dontlaugh 3y ago
    Wayland doesn't have the kind of abstraction that would allow that, partly since it would make it very hard to guarantee perfect frame rendering. A lot of what X11 does is instead handled by Wayland "compositors", they deal with almost all such policy logic. This is largely the same situation as on Windows or macOS, which Linux desktops are finally starting to catch up to.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
      I can't tell what level of parody we're at; if we're currently being serious, why would xkill or equivalent make rendering any harder than a normal close event?
cbm-vic-20 3y ago
> Why is x11 so backwards? Because it was built in a different time. Back in the 80s and early 90s, X11 provided a way for institutions and companies to mix-and-match their hardware and software environments, each with different capabilities. They would have big iron running expensive software and cheap(er) terminals that could display those applications across a campus. In a university environment, before there was a PC and network in every dorm room, before laptops were a thing, this was awesome. You could walk up to any workstation or X11 terminal on campus, and immediately have access to all of your applications, files, and everything else. And when PCs and networking came to the dorms, you could get an X server for your PC and do the same. But those days are long past; the networking use case, which was one of the most important aspects of X11, is pretty much no longer relevant. It's really surprising that Wayland still hasn't completely taken over, and they still haven't figured out how to handle certain interprocess communication that would allow screen sharing and other common desktop functionality.
- calvinmorrison 3y ago
  I felt my comment was so dripping with sarcasm nobody would miss it. SummonPoettering??? Yet like a moth to a flame you missed the point and jumped right into the reasons x11 sucks
  - wnoise 3y ago
    The more on-point sarcasm is, the harder it is to distinguish from the actual proponents' views.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  While true, it wasn't the only protocol for doing that, just the one that won mostly due to OSF/Motif politics, when GNU/Linux came to be that was already pretty much settled.
- erik_seaberg 3y ago
  I’m still predicting that Wayland will become an implementation detail of web browsers and some games. It doesn’t make sense for every app to render pixels in software and stream them from a datacenter, not for every desktop to have its own copy of every app.
Izkata 3y ago
> Simply put each window manages their own process tree as its much cleaner. Its very simple. And not correct: Processes can have multiple windows. Or no windows.
lupusreal 3y ago
High grade sarcasm? You had me going until the power button part.
dontlaugh 3y ago
I suspect this is satire.
- calvinmorrison 3y ago
  The fact 5 commenters did not understand it shows how willingly people will put up with the limitations of their software and diss the software they don't like. Surely the summoning of Leinart Poettering's spirit to find dead Pids in Waylands Hades was a dead giveaway
  - dontlaugh 3y ago
    I think it was funny, despite how much X11 has annoyed me over the years or how much I appreciate the correctness goals of both systemd and Wayland.

notpushkin 3y ago

Not if running on Ubuntu! They've replaced Docker with Snap, so you will have to dbus into ~/snap and patch the hook into the package. Of course, this will not work with the inferior Flatpak apps (which you shouldn't be using anyway as they are buggy and not as cool as snaps).

password4321 3y ago
I left Ubuntu because of snap, still haven't heard anything positive so seems like the right move so far.
- notpushkin 3y ago
  Unironically: yeah, I've switched to Debian everywhere and never looked back.

tuyiown 3y ago

Well a definitive press of the power button seems the good way of killing a window, as such notion simply shouldn't exist. One could also argue that those who complains in sarcasm about such unnecessary longings should do the same.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

dig1 3y ago

In the future, someone will (re)invent wayland-compose.yaml and announce that as the second-best thing after sliced bread. Imagine that technology - each window is a separate container! Our ancestors would be so proud. Then, you start your browser via "wayland-compose up" and that will load 50 additional containers via dbus-systemd, because "that is the only proper way" to run your application.

pests 3y ago
And we thought chrome was genius to introduce one process per tab. One container per tab, its better than one VM per tab.

bigbillheck 3y ago

> Why is x11 so backwards? Hasn't it been pretty much ossified for the last 30 years?

spellcard199 3y ago

Under Wayland with Gnome (it's gnome-specific), I recently learned you can kill windows by using Looking Glass: // 1. Open looking glass: Alt+F2 > lg // 2. Use picker to pick window (button on the top left corner). // 3. Now an object r(0) of type MetaSurfaceActor is available in the // gjs console (or some other number if you've already used it). // To get pid: r(0).get_parent().get_parent().get_meta_window().get_pid() // To kill window and process: r(0).get_parent().get_parent().get_meta_window().kill() Reference for what those .get_parent() refer to: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/tree/fc1de744/src/compositor https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/tree/fc1de744/src/co...

yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
...wait, does Wayland not have a drop in replacement for xkill?
- calvinmorrison 3y ago
  Simply jump into a Javascript runtime and run some functions from your runner! BTW your entire desktop is just an electron app rendering Wayland in WebGL.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- dontlaugh 3y ago
  Wayland doesn't have the kind of abstraction that would allow that, partly since it would make it very hard to guarantee perfect frame rendering. A lot of what X11 does is instead handled by Wayland "compositors", they deal with almost all such policy logic. This is largely the same situation as on Windows or macOS, which Linux desktops are finally starting to catch up to.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
    I can't tell what level of parody we're at; if we're currently being serious, why would xkill or equivalent make rendering any harder than a normal close event?

cbm-vic-20 3y ago

> Why is x11 so backwards? Because it was built in a different time. Back in the 80s and early 90s, X11 provided a way for institutions and companies to mix-and-match their hardware and software environments, each with different capabilities. They would have big iron running expensive software and cheap(er) terminals that could display those applications across a campus. In a university environment, before there was a PC and network in every dorm room, before laptops were a thing, this was awesome. You could walk up to any workstation or X11 terminal on campus, and immediately have access to all of your applications, files, and everything else. And when PCs and networking came to the dorms, you could get an X server for your PC and do the same. But those days are long past; the networking use case, which was one of the most important aspects of X11, is pretty much no longer relevant. It's really surprising that Wayland still hasn't completely taken over, and they still haven't figured out how to handle certain interprocess communication that would allow screen sharing and other common desktop functionality.

calvinmorrison 3y ago
I felt my comment was so dripping with sarcasm nobody would miss it. SummonPoettering??? Yet like a moth to a flame you missed the point and jumped right into the reasons x11 sucks
- wnoise 3y ago
  The more on-point sarcasm is, the harder it is to distinguish from the actual proponents' views.
pjmlp 3y ago
While true, it wasn't the only protocol for doing that, just the one that won mostly due to OSF/Motif politics, when GNU/Linux came to be that was already pretty much settled.
erik_seaberg 3y ago
I’m still predicting that Wayland will become an implementation detail of web browsers and some games. It doesn’t make sense for every app to render pixels in software and stream them from a datacenter, not for every desktop to have its own copy of every app.

Izkata 3y ago

> Simply put each window manages their own process tree as its much cleaner. Its very simple. And not correct: Processes can have multiple windows. Or no windows.

lupusreal 3y ago

High grade sarcasm? You had me going until the power button part.

dontlaugh 3y ago

I suspect this is satire.

calvinmorrison 3y ago
The fact 5 commenters did not understand it shows how willingly people will put up with the limitations of their software and diss the software they don't like. Surely the summoning of Leinart Poettering's spirit to find dead Pids in Waylands Hades was a dead giveaway
- dontlaugh 3y ago
  I think it was funny, despite how much X11 has annoyed me over the years or how much I appreciate the correctness goals of both systemd and Wayland.