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I have nothing against Google, but the slow decline in collective aspiration of hacker culture sucks. It used to be that everyone would dream of making a start

I have nothing against Google, but the slow decline in collective aspiration of hacker culture sucks. It used to be that everyone would dream of making a startup that big tech would acquihire. Now everyone seems to believe the ultimate goal of a tech job is to land at a FAANG, and just stay there for life? It’s so tame, so complicit. Hackerdom is now mostly about obscene levels of money and status?

Cthulhu_ 3y ago
There's hackers on the one side, but for the vast majority of developers (myself inclusive) it's just a job. FAANG is some of the best pay you'll ever get, and you're guaranteed for work and minimal income if you have that on your CV. "Hackerdom" whatever that means is separate from "working for a living".
acuozzo 3y ago
> It used to be that everyone would dream of making a startup that big tech would acquihire. Prior to that the dream was to just make a successful business. Consider Sun Microsystems. But let's be real and invoke NoTrueScotsman: "hackers" are supposed to be more like Bill Joy at UCB than Bill Joy at Sun. I doubt Bill Joy was thinking about business and financial success while hacking on BSD at UCB. Hacking was the end, not a means to an end.
xwdv 3y ago
True “hackers” don’t give a fuck about startups. Hackers are interested in how things work and how they can be exploited to do things or grant access to forbidden data. Real hackers back in the late 90s early 00s casually did things that would make a lot of today’s “hackers” blanche in the face and wet themselves at the thought of computer crime, or at least grope around for a downvote button. It was a thrilling era for freaks and geeks. Ever found yourself scrolling down a stolen CSV full of credit card numbers and full billing info? It’s like snorting a line of coke. As a teen I once stole $22k, spent several years looking over my shoulder expecting to be shot or cuffed. At some point the term “hacker” was co-opted to mean anyone writing code. These Silicon Valley tech entrepreneurs aren’t really “hackers”: they’re businessmen with some software engineering skills. But that doesn’t sound nearly as edgy or cool as calling yourself a hacker.
- rideontime 3y ago
  Ok, grandma, let's get you to bed.
  - 2toxic 3y ago
    i lold)
- jhbadger 3y ago
  Computer criminals calling themselves "hackers" is fairly recent, only the past few decades. And that's as unwarranted as calling anyone who codes as "hackers" as you mention. Originally hackers were the people actually creating new innovations, typically with no financial gain desired either criminal or legitimate. People at places like MIT or Stanford in the 1970s and the like.
  - xwdv 3y ago
    Even if true, still a far cry from the typical Silicon Valley brogrammers making pitch decks.
actionfromafar 3y ago
Probably because it has become increasingly apparent that an aquihire isn’t all what it’s cracked up to be.
- mattgreenrocks 3y ago
  By the same line of logic, doesn't that also implicate full-time work there? Or do people not think about it that much?
  - actionfromafar 3y ago
    You can bust your ass and maybe get a job there after a few years suffering. Or you can just go there directly without the suffering. Given the choice, it’s not unrational to skip a few years of uncertain payoff.
dartharva 3y ago
That was the time when credit and finance flowed like water. Not anymore.
bogwog 3y ago
> It used to be that everyone would dream of making a startup that big tech would acquihire. This really goes to show how pathetic the tech industry has been for the past ~2 decades. People don't aspire to build the next Google, just to get a job with Google. That's like saying the Matrix inspired you to land a job where you get your own cubicle. When I was a kid dreaming of the future, I never thought that "success" meant being acquihired by a tech giant. That seems stupid, why wouldn't I just apply like a normal person? Building something like eBay or YouTube and turning it into a massive success to rival the giants was the dream. All you needed was a keyboard and luck. I don't know if I'm alone in that, or if this is a generational thing? I'm currently under 30, so if it is, then it's probably a relatively recent phenomenon. I guess programmers born in the mid 00s probably grew up in a world already dominated by the same few tech giants, and missed the part where they were growing and fighting for dominance. Of course, I would say that's probably the most reasonable dream to have considering the circumstances. If you do manage to build an innovative and sustainable business, it's unlikely you'll survive once the tech giants attack you with anticompetitive tactics that they know they can get away with. ...that doesn't make it any less lame though.
- mattgreenrocks 3y ago
  Don't think it's generational. I'm 41 and had the same take. I think the core of it is that I internalized a (supposedly) fundamental hacker aesthetic of autonomy, and it seems the culture traded that away for a needy, zero sum, external-validation-needing void. Now we're told that we really should be working on our brands, amassing our GitHub stars, and other bullshit that is wholly orthogonal to actually building cool stuff. Cause who wants to do that when the rewards are uncertain? Follower counts are what really matters, this is the attention economy, and you can't be left behind!
  - Aeolun 3y ago
    I think the amount of people in it for the sake of building hasn’t really changed. It’s just that the domain has been absolutely flooded by people in it for the money. Things felt nicer when we were all still just building.
- 3y ago
TheCleric 3y ago
Hacker culture and entrepreneurship are orthogonal.
- mattgreenrocks 3y ago
  Agree. That point was muddled by me. The aim should be in building things, not being seen as successful.
hotnfresh 3y ago
Does this need a /s at the end? Your lament is that we’ve abandoned the dream of getting acquihired by big tech for… the same thing but with fewer steps? It has to be sarcasm.
coffeebeqn 3y ago
It’s simple - Most people work for money. If someone offers me compensation that allows me to be financially independent in 10 years that’s a deal that is smart to take no?
phone8675309 3y ago
> It used to be that everyone would dream of making a startup that big tech would acquihire. > It’s so tame, so complicit. Hackerdom is now mostly about obscene levels of money and status? The goal of many who make a startup that big tech would acquihire _is_ about achieving obscene levels of money and status. If they're acquihiring you then by definition you no longer have full say about what the business does. If it really was about making something, the best something you can, then you would resist being acquihired. You move to get acquihired to get paid.

Cthulhu_ 3y ago

There's hackers on the one side, but for the vast majority of developers (myself inclusive) it's just a job. FAANG is some of the best pay you'll ever get, and you're guaranteed for work and minimal income if you have that on your CV. "Hackerdom" whatever that means is separate from "working for a living".

acuozzo 3y ago

> It used to be that everyone would dream of making a startup that big tech would acquihire. Prior to that the dream was to just make a successful business. Consider Sun Microsystems. But let's be real and invoke NoTrueScotsman: "hackers" are supposed to be more like Bill Joy at UCB than Bill Joy at Sun. I doubt Bill Joy was thinking about business and financial success while hacking on BSD at UCB. Hacking was the end, not a means to an end.

xwdv 3y ago

True “hackers” don’t give a fuck about startups. Hackers are interested in how things work and how they can be exploited to do things or grant access to forbidden data. Real hackers back in the late 90s early 00s casually did things that would make a lot of today’s “hackers” blanche in the face and wet themselves at the thought of computer crime, or at least grope around for a downvote button. It was a thrilling era for freaks and geeks. Ever found yourself scrolling down a stolen CSV full of credit card numbers and full billing info? It’s like snorting a line of coke. As a teen I once stole $22k, spent several years looking over my shoulder expecting to be shot or cuffed. At some point the term “hacker” was co-opted to mean anyone writing code. These Silicon Valley tech entrepreneurs aren’t really “hackers”: they’re businessmen with some software engineering skills. But that doesn’t sound nearly as edgy or cool as calling yourself a hacker.

rideontime 3y ago
Ok, grandma, let's get you to bed.
- 2toxic 3y ago
  i lold)
jhbadger 3y ago
Computer criminals calling themselves "hackers" is fairly recent, only the past few decades. And that's as unwarranted as calling anyone who codes as "hackers" as you mention. Originally hackers were the people actually creating new innovations, typically with no financial gain desired either criminal or legitimate. People at places like MIT or Stanford in the 1970s and the like.
- xwdv 3y ago
  Even if true, still a far cry from the typical Silicon Valley brogrammers making pitch decks.

actionfromafar 3y ago

Probably because it has become increasingly apparent that an aquihire isn’t all what it’s cracked up to be.

mattgreenrocks 3y ago
By the same line of logic, doesn't that also implicate full-time work there? Or do people not think about it that much?
- actionfromafar 3y ago
  You can bust your ass and maybe get a job there after a few years suffering. Or you can just go there directly without the suffering. Given the choice, it’s not unrational to skip a few years of uncertain payoff.

dartharva 3y ago

That was the time when credit and finance flowed like water. Not anymore.

bogwog 3y ago

> It used to be that everyone would dream of making a startup that big tech would acquihire. This really goes to show how pathetic the tech industry has been for the past ~2 decades. People don't aspire to build the next Google, just to get a job with Google. That's like saying the Matrix inspired you to land a job where you get your own cubicle. When I was a kid dreaming of the future, I never thought that "success" meant being acquihired by a tech giant. That seems stupid, why wouldn't I just apply like a normal person? Building something like eBay or YouTube and turning it into a massive success to rival the giants was the dream. All you needed was a keyboard and luck. I don't know if I'm alone in that, or if this is a generational thing? I'm currently under 30, so if it is, then it's probably a relatively recent phenomenon. I guess programmers born in the mid 00s probably grew up in a world already dominated by the same few tech giants, and missed the part where they were growing and fighting for dominance. Of course, I would say that's probably the most reasonable dream to have considering the circumstances. If you do manage to build an innovative and sustainable business, it's unlikely you'll survive once the tech giants attack you with anticompetitive tactics that they know they can get away with. ...that doesn't make it any less lame though.

mattgreenrocks 3y ago
Don't think it's generational. I'm 41 and had the same take. I think the core of it is that I internalized a (supposedly) fundamental hacker aesthetic of autonomy, and it seems the culture traded that away for a needy, zero sum, external-validation-needing void. Now we're told that we really should be working on our brands, amassing our GitHub stars, and other bullshit that is wholly orthogonal to actually building cool stuff. Cause who wants to do that when the rewards are uncertain? Follower counts are what really matters, this is the attention economy, and you can't be left behind!
- Aeolun 3y ago
  I think the amount of people in it for the sake of building hasn’t really changed. It’s just that the domain has been absolutely flooded by people in it for the money. Things felt nicer when we were all still just building.
3y ago

TheCleric 3y ago

Hacker culture and entrepreneurship are orthogonal.

mattgreenrocks 3y ago
Agree. That point was muddled by me. The aim should be in building things, not being seen as successful.

hotnfresh 3y ago

Does this need a /s at the end? Your lament is that we’ve abandoned the dream of getting acquihired by big tech for… the same thing but with fewer steps? It has to be sarcasm.

coffeebeqn 3y ago

It’s simple - Most people work for money. If someone offers me compensation that allows me to be financially independent in 10 years that’s a deal that is smart to take no?

phone8675309 3y ago

> It used to be that everyone would dream of making a startup that big tech would acquihire. > It’s so tame, so complicit. Hackerdom is now mostly about obscene levels of money and status? The goal of many who make a startup that big tech would acquihire _is_ about achieving obscene levels of money and status. If they're acquihiring you then by definition you no longer have full say about what the business does. If it really was about making something, the best something you can, then you would resist being acquihired. You move to get acquihired to get paid.