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>Government tech investment delivered the Internet Hmm ... nah. The internet would have happened anyway. Also, we owe its growth to plenty of ISPs everywhere a

>Government tech investment delivered the Internet Hmm ... nah. The internet would have happened anyway. Also, we owe its growth to plenty of ISPs everywhere and quite possibly ... piracy and porn. Even if it was true and the government single handedly created the whole www, that shouldn't be a carte blanche to just waste money that could otherwise be invested in a better way. Also your bit about YC, YC is private money, they could throw all of it into the ocean and I wouldn't bat an eye. The government, however, takes almost half of what I make, for sure I'd like to know, with unprecedented detail, where and why my money is going to. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried to, lol.

avmich 3y ago
Sounds... strange. > that's not a carte blanche to just waste money that could otherwise be invested in a better way. What are some of the better ways to approach investment by the government today, compared to what we have?
- artificialLimbs 3y ago
  Let the people discover what to invest in themselves.
  - 1auralynn 3y ago
    I'd rather have a panel of experts in the field with clear criteria decide the merit of the grant vs a crowdfunding-like model where people vote for the most charismatic person with the most well-produced video.
    - kortilla 3y ago
      Those “panels of experts” tend to be interested in what they are already trained in. An expert is the last person you want to push for new ideas.
    - nvm0n2 3y ago
      What clear criteria do they use to decide the merits of grants? > the most charismatic person with the most well-produced video. Ability to actually communicate your idea and justification for being funded, effectively and in a professional manner, is something notably missing from many academic projects. It's not exactly zero signal.
  - chii 3y ago
    > Let the people discover what to invest in themselves. and then the people will be asking for faster horses.
    - WalterBright 3y ago
      Did the government invent automobiles?
- junofan 3y ago
  In-Q-Tel seems to be doing well from the outside. Curious what people think. I’m also confused why the EU pursues broad megaprojects instead of adopting the model that produced their antecedents. Is there some historical reason?
i_love_cookies 3y ago
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fooblaster 3y ago
Happened anyway? You have any idea of the value that was created by having it happen many years earlier? Modern integrated computers let alone the Internet were brought into being because of defense investment by the government. These things rarely happen entirely organically in free markets. You think SpaceX would exist without heavy early investment by NASA, or later money from the commercial crew program? Unlikely.
- moralestapia 3y ago
  >Happened anyway? Absolutely, zero doubt about it! >You have any idea of the value that was created by having it happen many years earlier? There's no early or late, it happened when it happened. Also www means "world wide web" which, by definition, implies a collaborative effort of the whole ... world? Sure, props to the US for lighting the first spark, but after that everyone did their part, even us, its users.
  - nateglims 3y ago
    Piracy is routinely found to be illegal when it meets the judicial system, and the distributors of porn profited greatly from the distribution system before the internet. Why would they be the drivers of this? edit: replied to the wrong comment, but it's still relevant to the assertion that the internet would have been invented without public funding
  - Apocryphon 3y ago
    Yes, an effort of the whole world's public institutions. Tim Berners-Lee didn't work for the CERN Corporation when he set up the Web.
    - moralestapia 3y ago
      Some effort from everybody in the world, even us, its users. I'd estimate the "GDP" and traffic related to public institutions as a single-digit percentage of the whole web.
mullingitover 3y ago
> The internet would have happened anyway. Maybe "mega-AOL" might've happened, but an open network of networks where there's no parasitic mega-corp acting as gatekeeper and tollbooth operator? Citation needed.
- kortilla 3y ago
  AOL was made far after that and still exploded in popularity. Facebook today is approaching the level of mega AOL. There is a constant pull between open and closed systems. Nothing the government did ensured networks would be connected together. TCP/IP is such a low level building block it’s easy to create closed networks with it.
- WalterBright 3y ago
  The bulletin board networks. People with two or more computers were always finding ways to connect them before the internet. Networking protocols were a dime a dozen in the 70s and 80s. The idea that people would never hit on the idea of a protocol over telephone wires is not particularly compelling. It's like saying if the Wrights had not invented controlled, powered flight in 1903 we'd still not have airplanes. (It would probably have been accomplished by other people by 1908 or so, 1910 at the latest.) The internet was just one step in a long line of digital telecommunications networks, starting with telegraphy. See "The Victorian Internet" by Tom Standage https://www.amazon.com/Victorian-Internet-Remarkable-Nineteenth-line/dp/162040592X https://www.amazon.com/Victorian-Internet-Remarkable-Ninetee...
pkd 3y ago
"happened anyway" is always logic I see applied to government made advancements and not to private ones. A good read on the topic is "The Entrepreneurial State" by M. Mazzucato.
- moralestapia 3y ago
  Not always, not the case with me.
  - Apocryphon 3y ago
    Would you say the Google search engine or the iPhone have happened anyway?
    - moralestapia 3y ago
      Definitely! Google was just one of many search engines when it was created, arguably the best of its time, but still not the inventors of the search engine. Same thing with Apple and the iPhone.

avmich 3y ago

Sounds... strange. > that's not a carte blanche to just waste money that could otherwise be invested in a better way. What are some of the better ways to approach investment by the government today, compared to what we have?

artificialLimbs 3y ago
Let the people discover what to invest in themselves.
- 1auralynn 3y ago
  I'd rather have a panel of experts in the field with clear criteria decide the merit of the grant vs a crowdfunding-like model where people vote for the most charismatic person with the most well-produced video.
  - kortilla 3y ago
    Those “panels of experts” tend to be interested in what they are already trained in. An expert is the last person you want to push for new ideas.
  - nvm0n2 3y ago
    What clear criteria do they use to decide the merits of grants? > the most charismatic person with the most well-produced video. Ability to actually communicate your idea and justification for being funded, effectively and in a professional manner, is something notably missing from many academic projects. It's not exactly zero signal.
- chii 3y ago
  > Let the people discover what to invest in themselves. and then the people will be asking for faster horses.
  - WalterBright 3y ago
    Did the government invent automobiles?
junofan 3y ago
In-Q-Tel seems to be doing well from the outside. Curious what people think. I’m also confused why the EU pursues broad megaprojects instead of adopting the model that produced their antecedents. Is there some historical reason?

i_love_cookies 3y ago

[dead]

fooblaster 3y ago

Happened anyway? You have any idea of the value that was created by having it happen many years earlier? Modern integrated computers let alone the Internet were brought into being because of defense investment by the government. These things rarely happen entirely organically in free markets. You think SpaceX would exist without heavy early investment by NASA, or later money from the commercial crew program? Unlikely.

moralestapia 3y ago
>Happened anyway? Absolutely, zero doubt about it! >You have any idea of the value that was created by having it happen many years earlier? There's no early or late, it happened when it happened. Also www means "world wide web" which, by definition, implies a collaborative effort of the whole ... world? Sure, props to the US for lighting the first spark, but after that everyone did their part, even us, its users.
- nateglims 3y ago
  Piracy is routinely found to be illegal when it meets the judicial system, and the distributors of porn profited greatly from the distribution system before the internet. Why would they be the drivers of this? edit: replied to the wrong comment, but it's still relevant to the assertion that the internet would have been invented without public funding
- Apocryphon 3y ago
  Yes, an effort of the whole world's public institutions. Tim Berners-Lee didn't work for the CERN Corporation when he set up the Web.
  - moralestapia 3y ago
    Some effort from everybody in the world, even us, its users. I'd estimate the "GDP" and traffic related to public institutions as a single-digit percentage of the whole web.

mullingitover 3y ago

> The internet would have happened anyway. Maybe "mega-AOL" might've happened, but an open network of networks where there's no parasitic mega-corp acting as gatekeeper and tollbooth operator? Citation needed.

kortilla 3y ago
AOL was made far after that and still exploded in popularity. Facebook today is approaching the level of mega AOL. There is a constant pull between open and closed systems. Nothing the government did ensured networks would be connected together. TCP/IP is such a low level building block it’s easy to create closed networks with it.
WalterBright 3y ago
The bulletin board networks. People with two or more computers were always finding ways to connect them before the internet. Networking protocols were a dime a dozen in the 70s and 80s. The idea that people would never hit on the idea of a protocol over telephone wires is not particularly compelling. It's like saying if the Wrights had not invented controlled, powered flight in 1903 we'd still not have airplanes. (It would probably have been accomplished by other people by 1908 or so, 1910 at the latest.) The internet was just one step in a long line of digital telecommunications networks, starting with telegraphy. See "The Victorian Internet" by Tom Standage https://www.amazon.com/Victorian-Internet-Remarkable-Nineteenth-line/dp/162040592X https://www.amazon.com/Victorian-Internet-Remarkable-Ninetee...

pkd 3y ago

"happened anyway" is always logic I see applied to government made advancements and not to private ones. A good read on the topic is "The Entrepreneurial State" by M. Mazzucato.

moralestapia 3y ago
Not always, not the case with me.
- Apocryphon 3y ago
  Would you say the Google search engine or the iPhone have happened anyway?
  - moralestapia 3y ago
    Definitely! Google was just one of many search engines when it was created, arguably the best of its time, but still not the inventors of the search engine. Same thing with Apple and the iPhone.