9 ms·

People no longer know how much to tip

63 points by lxm 3y ago

alwayslikethis 3y ago
Alright, let's make it zero then. Once a significant fraction of people stop tipping (10-15%), service staff will demand raises, which will reflect in the increased prices, causing more people to not tip, and the cycle will complete relatively quickly with only a small portion of people left tipping any significant amount. Some businesses may advertise as non-tipping as a form of marketing.
orionblastar 3y ago
I always tip cash even if I pay with a credit card. Taxation is theft!
- yreg 3y ago
  I only tip in restaurants with servers and at the barber, nowhere else. But I always make sure to tip with card. If it's not possible then tough luck. I pay my taxes, I don't see why the restaurant industry should not. If the tips aren't distributed to the staff that's not my problem, I'm not responsible for their compensation.
javajosh 3y ago
It's paywalled, but yeah I just do what I learned growing up: 15% is a solid tip, with more, e.g. up to 25% for excellent service or less - down to 0 - for bad service. $1 per drink at a bar. Or if I'm broke, I don't tip at all and feel bad about it. The young people who tip 25% and up and sneer at you if you don't can get right off my lawn and their sneers have no effect on me.
- crdrost 3y ago
  This advice is subtly no longer correct in delivery apps, as they have creative ways of calculating tip. The correct advice is probably to double the tax. So it used to be, you would order something for delivery, they would charge you the in-person price for each item, add them up, subtract discounts, and give you a number called the “subtotal.” To this they would add a delivery fee, taxes, and you would add your tip as 15% of subtotal. In the dark pattern world that we find ourselves, the menu items on a typical delivery app are secretly priced 25% higher than in-person. (Go ahead, look up Applebees’ “2 for $28” menu item on a delivery app, tell me it doesn't cost $35.) This is so that they can advertise “Reduced delivery and service fees if you subscribe to our monthly service so that we can get MRR from forgetful people!!”. Then the tax and service fees are added to the cart total, but the discount is NOT subtracted, before they provide helpful tip buttons. Doordash doesn't even tell you the percentage, they just expect you to pick the smallest one and it's a 30 or 40% tip or whatever, Uber will tell you “oh you’re only giving this person a 10% tip you monster” even though it's a 15% tip calculated the “hard way.” It all adds up, picking up a big nice breakfast in bed for me and the kid and my wife on my wife's birthday from Starbucks was like $30 via the Starbucks app, I punched it into Uber Eats and they wanted to charge me almost double for the identical order. So if that ~180% had a 15% tip in it, then it was actually ~57% marked up to begin with and you actually paid a 24% tip. (I don't know if that's typical of Uber Eats but it suggests that on Uber Eats you should only tip what-they-call-10%.) But they will be unlikely to play these games with the tax man, so “double the tax” is probably slightly safer?
gustavus 3y ago
I for one am getting sick of the constant request for tips, especially before services rendered. I feel obligated to tip because I'm worried if I don't I'll be getting "trouser food" as Roy says, and so whatever the price i think I'll be paying is actually $5-$10 more than expected. Especially with delivery at this point or places that are self service.
- yreg 3y ago
  I get tipping where it is an established tradition (like the restaurants or when traveling). But in these new paradigms you mention, you don't have to tip! E.g. food delivery (at larger scale) came to my country during COVID. Since there is no tradition or expectation, I never tip the app. AFAIK, my friends don't either. And it's fine that way.
a_square_peg 3y ago
I think the word 'tip' should be replaced with the word 'subsidize' on these payment prompt machines. Quite absurd practice that I really wish we can move away from as a society.
- compiler-devel 3y ago
  Our present system’s degrading of the term “tip” is part of the enshitification of everything.
jmcphers 3y ago
Yesterday I had lunch at a Shake Shack. Humans don't take orders there any more; you place your order at a self-serve touchscreen kiosk. As I finished placing my order, I was prompted to leave a tip; 10% was the default and you had to press a button to change it. Who am I tipping, exactly? The kiosk? Myself? No one had even made eye contact with me up to this point. I have ordered fast food from a computer. When I have eaten it, I'm expected to bus my own table. And yet, I felt bad for removing the tip before placing my order, and kind of slunk away from the kiosk hoping the kitchen in the back doesn't know whether or not I tipped, so they can't spit on my burger.
- dankwizard 3y ago
  The tip wouldn't have gone to the food staff prepping your burger so doubt they'd even know
  - otteromkram 3y ago
    The BOH wouldn't know or carw, but the server usually handles the food and drink before it gets to the table.
- yreg 3y ago
  Don't worry, you will stop feeling bad about it after it happens a few more times. You haven't done anything wrong.
  - dylan604 3y ago
    but the fear of them spitting in the food will always still be there
    - Chirael 3y ago
      Choose to go somewhere else that doesn’t do that to you; if you vote with your feet, they will get the message
      - 3y ago
tmountain 3y ago
Pro tip: pay cash whenever you can. You can avoid a kiosk that asks you whether you want to tip 30%, 25%, or 20% for the $8 coffee you just bought and just throw some loose change in the jar.
- Larrikin 3y ago
  I get thousands of dollars back from my credit card company every year and pay for everything I can with my cards. Many cards specifically give you a higher percentage back on restaurants. I have no intention of ever giving that up. The awkwardness at the counter when the tip prompt shows up is only in your head.
  - eesmith 3y ago
    You know that paying with cash is effectively an automatic ~3% tip over paying by credit card, right? You are getting a cut of the service fee they charge the restaurant. I do not trust a company bribing me with my own money.
- underseacables 3y ago
  As the government pushes us towards a cashless society. Australia is on the brink of going cashless, so your solution would not work.
  - pauldenton 3y ago
    Australia's government has over reacted and over reached since March of 2020. A backlash is inevitable.
- marssaxman 3y ago
  I am increasingly doing this as I have started to see "we are a cash-free business" signs; I don't want to lose the option of paying with cash, so I'm starting to exercise it more often.
candiddevmike 3y ago
I would much rather pay more for items than be expected to tip. I consider tipping to be like all the other "hidden fees" we encounter. Just give me the total price for something.
- hotpotamus 3y ago
  I mostly don’t tip. I don’t do this by stiffing waiters, I do it by not going to places where I’ll be expected to tip. Which means I make my own coffee in the morning and either make my own food or get premade salads or sandwiches from the grocery store. Works for me at least but I rather enjoy living modestly.
theothertimcook 3y ago
The right amount is 0%. Tipping is stupid, if you can’t afford to pay your staff, your trading insolvent.
- drdaeman 3y ago
  It's not stupid for exceptional service. If someone made extra effort that impressed me, I'd gladly give them some extra money because that was worth something for me. But, yes, the default/baseline expectation should be 0.00 on top of the sale price.
- andrewmcwatters 3y ago
  Hilarious that you mention this when the other camp says, “If you can’t afford to tip you can’t afford to eat out.” Thank you.
photochemsyn 3y ago
Stop calling them tips, start calling them commissions on sales, and automatically include that in the price of each item. This eliminates tipping entirely and if the customer doesn't like the quality of service, they can make their displeasure known by not returning. Nobody working in high-end retail sales gets tips, but they do get commissions, which are included in the listed prices. This is really a much better, fairer, and less socially awkward approach to the issue. Note it's also much better than replacing tips with an hourly wage increase because the staff is rewarded if the business is busy, so they're incentivized to keep the clients coming back.
graton 3y ago
I've started paying cash more at places that have tipping screens for what I consider to be a service that a tip is not required. For example the local donut shop has a tipping screen for them spending 1-2 minutes of time to get the donuts.
- dylan604 3y ago
  For most of the donut shops around me, I don't mind tipping. Typically, the person working the counter is the spouse/sibling/child of the person making the donuts. For family places like that, I'm much less opposed to tipping. Besides, how much is the tip going to be for donuts? For the specialty donuts that charge as much for a single donut as others charge for a dozen get tips like "don't play in the street".
ynx 3y ago
This might be a self-report, but... I used to tip anywhere from high 20's to low 30's, but in the years since COVID, _everything_ asks for a tip even when no extra service is provided (i.e. take-out), so I default to 0%, or a modest 10 or 15% if it's dine-in at a local shop. I support workers' rights and a living wage, but can't really justify upholding the current scheme of exploitation by store owners in the name of supporting labor. I would much rather laws and/or unions force the issue of laborers getting paid what their labor is worth than giving more money to business owners praying that they are not crushing their employees.
- calvinmorrison 3y ago
  I used to tip 50%. $2 beer? $1 tip. Now the same beer is $5 and I dont feel like tipping anymore.
  - jononomo 3y ago
    Yeah, I feel the same way about coffee. If I'm paying $3 for something that ought to cost $0.75, then I don't see why I should tip another $1 on top.
adoxyz 3y ago
Tipping has gotten absurd in the US. I am unironically waiting for the self-checkout machines at grocery stores to start demanding tips. I still cave and end up tipping almost every time, since it's not the employees fault, but man - going to a frozen yogurt place, preparing everything myself, and having the checkout employee swing the tablet around for a tip always irks me.
denysvitali 3y ago
It can sound controversial, but can we please stop with tipping altogether? Leaving aside for a second the fact that now tipping is basically asked everywhere (even at automated machines) - as an European I consider it an extremely stupid trend. If you're "forced" to tip, then it's not a tip anymore. The concept of tipping, at least in Switzerland, has always been to show gratitude for an *exceptional* service. I totally understand the situation in the States, where the tip is basically the employee's wage - but this shouldn't be the case to begin with. It shouldn't be considered rude to not tip the service was good / OK. Employees / waiters should be paid adequate wages regardless of their tips - in the end this is why the food in a restaurant is so expensive (compared to cooking at home).
- teaearlgraycold 3y ago
  I’ve seen more and more places just include an obligatory 20% service charge. Should that just be priced in? Yes. But I think it’s a baby step in the right direction.
  - denysvitali 3y ago
    The thing is that the food price (e.g: menu item) already includes that - so there shouldn't be a tip to begin with. IMHO they should add a mandatory 20% service charge _after_ they discount all of the menu items by 20% - or simply get rid of the tip entirely.
  - ryandrake 3y ago
    Yea, just price it in to the goddamn food or service. There is no difference between a $10 burger plus $2 obligatory tip and a $12 burger with no tipping. EDIT: It's not the customer's job to pay a company's payroll.
    - denysvitali 3y ago
      The problem is that they sell a 12$ burger and the 2$ doesn't go to the waiter - instead they ask you to pay 14$ to compensate for this
rufus_foreman 3y ago
I’ll tip if someone really deserves a tipping, if they really put forth the effort, I’ll give them something extra, but I mean this tipping automatically, it’s for the birds.
dmonitor 3y ago
Their "history of tipping" doesn't make a ton of sense. They say it starts with black americans willing to work as waiters for lower wages, since they could expect to be paid with tips. If they took those jobs expecting to be tipped, tipping was already a common practice.
- jgwil2 3y ago
  I'm guessing they mean that's how it went from optional to obligatory.
- blackwateragent 3y ago
  I've read this article before that seems to offer some additional information on the topic you raised. [1] > When the practice was brought to the United States in the 19th century, the American public was deeply uncomfortable with it. Many saw tipping as undemocratic and therefore un-American. A powerful anti-tipping movement erupted, fueled by the argument that employers, not customers, should be paying workers. But American restaurants and railway companies fought particularly hard to keep tipping, because it meant they didn’t have to pay recently freed black slaves who were now employed by those industries. Europe eventually did away with tipping. But in America, pressure from powerful corporate interests resulted in a two-tiered wage system for tipped and non-tipped workers, institutionalizing a highly racialized system of economic exclusion. [1] https://www.fordfoundation.org/news-and-stories/stories/american-tipping-is-rooted-in-slavery-and-it-still-hurts-workers-today/ https://www.fordfoundation.org/news-and-stories/stories/amer...
10g1k 3y ago
We don't tip here. The customer pays the employer. The employer pays the employee.
arijun 3y ago
Everyone on here is complaining about the tips, but I don’t see a way to break tipping culture. Are we going to keep ratcheting up tip percentages forever or is there a solution?
- MathMonkeyMan 3y ago
  I tip servers, bartenders, cab drivers, and my barber. If a machine prompts me for more money, I ignore it. edit: and I tip the food delivery guy
- wombat-man 3y ago
  Making a restaurant tip free isn't enough. They need to give staff a fixed percentage of the menu price and make it known.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    Is that specific to restaurants, or should staff get a fixed percentage of revenue at every business? If specific to restaurants, why?
- denysvitali 3y ago
  The problem is that if everyone stops tipping, the only ones being affected are the restaurant staff - not the owners. So the message won't be delivered and might actually cause more harm than it should.
  - recursive 3y ago
    If everyone stopped tipping, the restaurant would have to shut down, because the staff would seek alternate employment.
    - denysvitali 3y ago
      Most of the people I know working as a waiter / bartender didn't really have better choices
sigzero 3y ago
I give 20% no matter what.
- remram 3y ago
  You'd give 20% if your ATM asked?
  - dylan604 3y ago
    Tip === Service Fee
- dylan604 3y ago
  Hi, I just responded to your comment. Tip please
ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
One of the things about going to Japan, was the service there is phenomenal. Like way above-average. They won't accept tips. In fact, if you leave money on the table, they will chase after you, to give it back. If they did accept tips, I'd make it 50%. I'm pretty sure the reason is that the employees are paid a living wage. A nice side-effect, is that your table doesn't have an "assigned waitstaff." You can ask anyone walking by, for assistance.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  > I'm pretty sure the reason is that the employees are paid a living wage. The reason is cultural. They take pride in their work, regardless of any additional donations. I would even say it is insulting to be left a tip since the assumption, then, is that the worker would not have done the job to the best of their ability without the prospect of a donation.
  - makeitdouble 3y ago
    To note, "it's cultural" usually means "they've tried a lot of options and this one stuck as the most pragmatic at a social level" There's just so many reasons to not accept tips. In tipping countries it's seen as a boost for productivity, while in practice it also generates friction within the staff, widens the gap between day and night staff, blurries the client/staff relationship and makes kitchen staff miserable. And just so many additional reasons.
    - em-bee 3y ago
      "they've tried a lot of options and this one stuck as the most pragmatic at a social level" i am very skeptical of that claim. many cultural practices are done because they have always been done that way. and the reasons they evolved is long forgotten
      - makeitdouble 3y ago
        Cultural practices that don't match the current society either have such a low impact that getting rid of them isn't a priority, or they're not long for this world. Sometimes practices can feel completely at odds with one's believes, but if they're still widely adopted it usually means influential parts of society are still relying on them.
civilized 3y ago
Tipping is a significant negative experience that probably causes me to eat out less often. It's increasingly manipulative, extortionate, and most of all pointless. You have no idea what service you paid for or if the person who rendered it actually received the money.
- dylan604 3y ago
  at least going out to eat and paying a tip is better than staying home paying for the food, paying for a delivery fee, paying for "recovery fees", then finally paying for a tip.
booleandilemma 3y ago
I tip wait staff, hotel staff, uber drivers, barbers, and that's it. We seem to have entered this era of everyone asking for tips, in addition to the online buy-me-a-coffee micro donations culture but sorry, I can't tip everybody. Throw away the tip jars and demand higher wages from your bosses.
- jononomo 3y ago
  I remember the days when it never crossed anyone's mind to tip a barber.
  - eesmith 3y ago
    When was this era? Here is a guidebook for US army officers in 1984, https://archive.org/details/DTIC_ADA166412/page/n49/mode/2up?q=%22tip+a+barber%22 https://archive.org/details/DTIC_ADA166412/page/n49/mode/2up... : > There are certain individuals who perform services for you who should be tipped if you expect to receive good service. ... Tip a barber at least 15 percent; however, as much as 2 dollars may be appropriate in some establishments if multiple services are performed. The Hertz Survival Manual For Traveling Businessman, 1967: > A barber receives a 25¢ tip, and the tip for a shoeshine is 10¢. A 1953 newspaper article on John Wayne's expenses at https://archive.org/details/sedalia-democrat-1953-05-19/page/n11/mode/2up?q=%22tip+a+barber%22 https://archive.org/details/sedalia-democrat-1953-05-19/page... > Superior Judge William R. McKav commented, during the detailing of Wayne's expenses, that a star of his stature would have to tip $2 or "you and I would know what would be said" A 1949 novel, https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.86579/page/n159/mode/2up?q=%22tip+the+barber%22 https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.86579/page/n15... : > “That does not mean that I have to look like a cheap skate,” said Seymour. “You told me to take the kid to the barber: next time take him yourself and see what happens when you don’t tip the barber.” > “I never tip him,” said Sarah. “You’re just a big sport on your sister’s money.” > And in fact, Sarah never tipped the barbers for the children’s haircuts and she disregarded the gestures of contempt and anger which sometimes occurred In 1923, the result of a court case: > On page 188 of the August issue of Office Appliances was printed an account of an experience by A. W. Morf, of the Woodstock Typewriter Company, New York, N. Y. He refused to tip a barber, and the tip was added to his check. The case came into the court of special sessions at New York, and the court fined the barber $25.00. That's not to say everyone tipped, only that over the last century it certainly crossed the mind of quite a few people to tip the barber.
annoyingnoob 3y ago
I worked at a full service gas station in high school and community college. In 4 years of pumping gas, checking oil, checking tires, washing windows, I had exactly one customer that would tip. People did not tip at full service because they were paying extra for the service. We did not expect tips, pay was slightly better than minimum wage. I'd rather pay more than tip. People need to be paid reasonable and calculable wages.
irrational 3y ago
The first time I saw a tablet asking for a tip, I automatically gave one. Afterwards I thought about it and realized that was stupid. I've always declined the tips ever since. Nobody has batted an eye at my declining to tip and half the time the person at the register just says, "It's going to ask you for a tip, just decline it." Even they know it is stupid. But, it had the side effect of making me mad about tipping. I had increased my tips to 20% over the years, but now I've gone back to the old 15%.
Klonoar 3y ago
I'm at the point where I tip at certain experience-style dining outings, some bars, or at my local coffee shop where I know the workers and they're chill to me. Beyond these two experiences it's just gotten absurd. I partly want to blame the processors since they no doubt make more money when the overall charges are higher with tips.
calvinmorrison 3y ago
$0
dools 3y ago
As an Australian I can confidently say that I know exactly how much to tip.
denkmoon 3y ago
So everything just _asks_ for more money now, and people just do that? Crazy.
Footnote7341 3y ago
The biggest myth is that of poor service workers being paid under minimum wage and relying on your tips to survive the reality is that attractive waitresses make up to FIVE TIMES the take home nightly pay of workers in the back in tips. tips are extremely lucrative. there is a reason that wait staff themselves never oppose the current system. Not to mention the legal myths. if they actually received $0 in tips their employer would still be obligated to pay them atleast minimum wage. there is a reason they dont have to.
- gustavus 3y ago
  > the reality is that attractive waitresses make up to FIVE TIMES the take home nightly pay People constantly make this statement as if it is something wrong. The factor of the matter is that I probably make 20-30% more than ny teams project manager, why? Because I went into computers and had a mind for it and being blessed to be fairly intelligent (at least I'd like to believe so), resulting in me getting paid more for than someone else on my team. Is this wrong? Should I be resentful that somebody was born with better looks than me and that they get compensated more for that in certain sectors than people who are less attractive or fail to take care of their personal appearance? We all have strengths and weaknesses. Some people were blessed to be good with numbers, some to be good with people, why resent people for being good at something, or working to get good at it?
  - Footnote7341 3y ago
    what I am resenting is the misinformation false-narratives about workers who get tipped.
  - pauldenton 3y ago
    It's wrong because you go to restaurants for food, not to get your coffee refilled and awkward smalltalk. so the tip should go to the person who is making your food, not refilling your coffee and making small talk. And if the tips mean they are making more than double the cooks the cooks time is not being valued and they will likely quit
renewiltord 3y ago
Interesting. I actually tip less now. Now that I have been trained by high tip screen to sometimes "no tip" I have found there is not much pushback. So now I skip tips more often.
jononomo 3y ago
It should be illegal for an iPad to prompt a customer for a tip greater than 15%.
sys_64738 3y ago
Only time I've ever tipped is in a sit down restaurant. I don't pay for deliveries to avoid tips.
preommr 3y ago
My controversial opinion: Everybody should just start charging for tips. For years now, whenever I've pointed out that tipping makes no sense, people hit back with how that's just the way it is or point out how servers would make way less with it. Fine then, everybody should start charging a tip until it's normalized, until people start tipping at counter service, at self-checkouts and wherever else because the people working at those places also work hard and deserve to be rewarded. Also fun is how messed up the tipping system is in Canada: - American style tips (20% minimum) - The percentage increased from 15% (and 10% even earlier) because of inflation even though it's a percentage value and increases with inflation anyway - We (in Ontario) have minimum wage unlike in some states where they make like 2.30 and are expected to make the remaining in tips - We have higher food prices because of things like dairy protectionism (lookup dairy cartel) - We have high living costs in general because of things like our really expensive real estate, and canadian salaries are on average lower than US counterparts. - We have free healthcare compared to America, so that's another expense that servers don't have to pay for (especially if they get their tips in cash and don't report it for tax purposes)
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  If people expect an annual bonus from their employer, it is somewhat analogous to expecting a tip.
annica 3y ago
Worse it's used to perpetuate this scheme: "Tipped employees must receive a minimum wage of $2.13 per hour, known as a cash wage. That cash wage is combined with tips to reach the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour. (Many states and localities, listed below, have minimum wages set above the federal rate)." The idea being that you will fit the bill for their labor costs through tips instead of paying it themselves. Somehow the tipping idea perpetuated such that they can and do pay less than minimum wage because of the prevalence of tipping. https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/finance/tipped-minimum-wage https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/finance/tipped-minimum-wa...
armitron 3y ago
I have lived in the US for nearly 20 years (originally from Europe), SF for ~10 but I've since moved to a less progressive state in order to raise my kids in a better environment. I don't tip, ever. I've been pestered with why questions even after I calmly and clearly explained myself, chased down the street by angry waiters, cursed at and even threatened with violence. Still, I don't tip.
Larrikin 3y ago
The answer is more obviously becoming zero. Restaurants exist in every country in the world but somehow in America we have been convinced if you don't pay the extra hidden fee then nobody there can survive. Prices have increased so much on food that there just needs to be a reset. If I'm paying 15 dollars for fast food and then asked to tip on top of that I am fine with that business eventually going out of business.
deleted 3y ago
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methou 3y ago
even uber eats in Japan constantly asking for tips before and after each delivery, while I'm already paying an +30% menu price plus 200~400 Yen delivery yet another ~110 Yen platform fee. I don’t know what’s wrong with them, I ditched all these American apps when there’s a local competitor.
WirelessGigabit 3y ago
$0. I'm not responsible for somebody else's choice not to negotiate a decent wage.
r0ckarong 3y ago
Where is the "Fuck off, pay your staff" button?
nunez 3y ago
The article mentions an important point: customers tip more when given a list of tipping options than when they are not, even when they don't know how much to tip. This tracks with how Starbucks baristas are seeing more tips per week once they rolled out credit card tipping. https://old.reddit.com/r/starbucks/comments/zcl142/credit_card_tipping_hows_it_going/ https://old.reddit.com/r/starbucks/comments/zcl142/credit_ca...
neonate 3y ago
https://archive.ph/X3sgj https://archive.ph/X3sgj
anthonymelchett 3y ago
The correct answer is 0
friend_and_foe 3y ago
Oh, the answer to that is easy. If the person poured you a drink, brought food to your house, parked your car or took your order at a table and brought your food, base is 15%. If they were bad at it, lower, if they went above and beyond, more. Thems the rules, they've always been the rules, that's the social expectation. Anyone brow beating you into some other set of rules is trying to fleece you. They're saying "you're meek and you'll take it." The proper response to someone treating you like that is anger, not shame. You should feel absolutely no tinge of guilt.
- Fire-Dragon-DoL 3y ago
  I am more strict: good 15,ok 10,bad 0
allarm 3y ago
Easy. If they ask you to tip by default - don’t tip.

63 points by lxm 3y ago

Alright, let's make it zero then. Once a significant fraction of people stop tipping (10-15%), service staff will demand raises, which will reflect in the increased prices, causing more people to not tip, and the cycle will complete relatively quickly with only a small portion of people left tipping any significant amount. Some businesses may advertise as non-tipping as a form of marketing.

orionblastar 3y ago

I always tip cash even if I pay with a credit card. Taxation is theft!

yreg 3y ago
I only tip in restaurants with servers and at the barber, nowhere else. But I always make sure to tip with card. If it's not possible then tough luck. I pay my taxes, I don't see why the restaurant industry should not. If the tips aren't distributed to the staff that's not my problem, I'm not responsible for their compensation.

javajosh 3y ago

It's paywalled, but yeah I just do what I learned growing up: 15% is a solid tip, with more, e.g. up to 25% for excellent service or less - down to 0 - for bad service. $1 per drink at a bar. Or if I'm broke, I don't tip at all and feel bad about it. The young people who tip 25% and up and sneer at you if you don't can get right off my lawn and their sneers have no effect on me.

crdrost 3y ago
This advice is subtly no longer correct in delivery apps, as they have creative ways of calculating tip. The correct advice is probably to double the tax. So it used to be, you would order something for delivery, they would charge you the in-person price for each item, add them up, subtract discounts, and give you a number called the “subtotal.” To this they would add a delivery fee, taxes, and you would add your tip as 15% of subtotal. In the dark pattern world that we find ourselves, the menu items on a typical delivery app are secretly priced 25% higher than in-person. (Go ahead, look up Applebees’ “2 for $28” menu item on a delivery app, tell me it doesn't cost $35.) This is so that they can advertise “Reduced delivery and service fees if you subscribe to our monthly service so that we can get MRR from forgetful people!!”. Then the tax and service fees are added to the cart total, but the discount is NOT subtracted, before they provide helpful tip buttons. Doordash doesn't even tell you the percentage, they just expect you to pick the smallest one and it's a 30 or 40% tip or whatever, Uber will tell you “oh you’re only giving this person a 10% tip you monster” even though it's a 15% tip calculated the “hard way.” It all adds up, picking up a big nice breakfast in bed for me and the kid and my wife on my wife's birthday from Starbucks was like $30 via the Starbucks app, I punched it into Uber Eats and they wanted to charge me almost double for the identical order. So if that ~180% had a 15% tip in it, then it was actually ~57% marked up to begin with and you actually paid a 24% tip. (I don't know if that's typical of Uber Eats but it suggests that on Uber Eats you should only tip what-they-call-10%.) But they will be unlikely to play these games with the tax man, so “double the tax” is probably slightly safer?

gustavus 3y ago

I for one am getting sick of the constant request for tips, especially before services rendered. I feel obligated to tip because I'm worried if I don't I'll be getting "trouser food" as Roy says, and so whatever the price i think I'll be paying is actually $5-$10 more than expected. Especially with delivery at this point or places that are self service.

yreg 3y ago
I get tipping where it is an established tradition (like the restaurants or when traveling). But in these new paradigms you mention, you don't have to tip! E.g. food delivery (at larger scale) came to my country during COVID. Since there is no tradition or expectation, I never tip the app. AFAIK, my friends don't either. And it's fine that way.

a_square_peg 3y ago

I think the word 'tip' should be replaced with the word 'subsidize' on these payment prompt machines. Quite absurd practice that I really wish we can move away from as a society.

compiler-devel 3y ago
Our present system’s degrading of the term “tip” is part of the enshitification of everything.

jmcphers 3y ago

Yesterday I had lunch at a Shake Shack. Humans don't take orders there any more; you place your order at a self-serve touchscreen kiosk. As I finished placing my order, I was prompted to leave a tip; 10% was the default and you had to press a button to change it. Who am I tipping, exactly? The kiosk? Myself? No one had even made eye contact with me up to this point. I have ordered fast food from a computer. When I have eaten it, I'm expected to bus my own table. And yet, I felt bad for removing the tip before placing my order, and kind of slunk away from the kiosk hoping the kitchen in the back doesn't know whether or not I tipped, so they can't spit on my burger.

dankwizard 3y ago
The tip wouldn't have gone to the food staff prepping your burger so doubt they'd even know
- otteromkram 3y ago
  The BOH wouldn't know or carw, but the server usually handles the food and drink before it gets to the table.
yreg 3y ago
Don't worry, you will stop feeling bad about it after it happens a few more times. You haven't done anything wrong.
- dylan604 3y ago
  but the fear of them spitting in the food will always still be there
  - Chirael 3y ago
    Choose to go somewhere else that doesn’t do that to you; if you vote with your feet, they will get the message
    - 3y ago

tmountain 3y ago

Pro tip: pay cash whenever you can. You can avoid a kiosk that asks you whether you want to tip 30%, 25%, or 20% for the $8 coffee you just bought and just throw some loose change in the jar.

Larrikin 3y ago
I get thousands of dollars back from my credit card company every year and pay for everything I can with my cards. Many cards specifically give you a higher percentage back on restaurants. I have no intention of ever giving that up. The awkwardness at the counter when the tip prompt shows up is only in your head.
- eesmith 3y ago
  You know that paying with cash is effectively an automatic ~3% tip over paying by credit card, right? You are getting a cut of the service fee they charge the restaurant. I do not trust a company bribing me with my own money.
underseacables 3y ago
As the government pushes us towards a cashless society. Australia is on the brink of going cashless, so your solution would not work.
- pauldenton 3y ago
  Australia's government has over reacted and over reached since March of 2020. A backlash is inevitable.
marssaxman 3y ago
I am increasingly doing this as I have started to see "we are a cash-free business" signs; I don't want to lose the option of paying with cash, so I'm starting to exercise it more often.

candiddevmike 3y ago

I would much rather pay more for items than be expected to tip. I consider tipping to be like all the other "hidden fees" we encounter. Just give me the total price for something.

hotpotamus 3y ago
I mostly don’t tip. I don’t do this by stiffing waiters, I do it by not going to places where I’ll be expected to tip. Which means I make my own coffee in the morning and either make my own food or get premade salads or sandwiches from the grocery store. Works for me at least but I rather enjoy living modestly.

theothertimcook 3y ago

The right amount is 0%. Tipping is stupid, if you can’t afford to pay your staff, your trading insolvent.

drdaeman 3y ago
It's not stupid for exceptional service. If someone made extra effort that impressed me, I'd gladly give them some extra money because that was worth something for me. But, yes, the default/baseline expectation should be 0.00 on top of the sale price.
andrewmcwatters 3y ago
Hilarious that you mention this when the other camp says, “If you can’t afford to tip you can’t afford to eat out.” Thank you.

photochemsyn 3y ago

Stop calling them tips, start calling them commissions on sales, and automatically include that in the price of each item. This eliminates tipping entirely and if the customer doesn't like the quality of service, they can make their displeasure known by not returning. Nobody working in high-end retail sales gets tips, but they do get commissions, which are included in the listed prices. This is really a much better, fairer, and less socially awkward approach to the issue. Note it's also much better than replacing tips with an hourly wage increase because the staff is rewarded if the business is busy, so they're incentivized to keep the clients coming back.

graton 3y ago

I've started paying cash more at places that have tipping screens for what I consider to be a service that a tip is not required. For example the local donut shop has a tipping screen for them spending 1-2 minutes of time to get the donuts.

dylan604 3y ago
For most of the donut shops around me, I don't mind tipping. Typically, the person working the counter is the spouse/sibling/child of the person making the donuts. For family places like that, I'm much less opposed to tipping. Besides, how much is the tip going to be for donuts? For the specialty donuts that charge as much for a single donut as others charge for a dozen get tips like "don't play in the street".

ynx 3y ago

This might be a self-report, but... I used to tip anywhere from high 20's to low 30's, but in the years since COVID, _everything_ asks for a tip even when no extra service is provided (i.e. take-out), so I default to 0%, or a modest 10 or 15% if it's dine-in at a local shop. I support workers' rights and a living wage, but can't really justify upholding the current scheme of exploitation by store owners in the name of supporting labor. I would much rather laws and/or unions force the issue of laborers getting paid what their labor is worth than giving more money to business owners praying that they are not crushing their employees.

calvinmorrison 3y ago
I used to tip 50%. $2 beer? $1 tip. Now the same beer is $5 and I dont feel like tipping anymore.
- jononomo 3y ago
  Yeah, I feel the same way about coffee. If I'm paying $3 for something that ought to cost $0.75, then I don't see why I should tip another $1 on top.

adoxyz 3y ago

Tipping has gotten absurd in the US. I am unironically waiting for the self-checkout machines at grocery stores to start demanding tips. I still cave and end up tipping almost every time, since it's not the employees fault, but man - going to a frozen yogurt place, preparing everything myself, and having the checkout employee swing the tablet around for a tip always irks me.

denysvitali 3y ago

It can sound controversial, but can we please stop with tipping altogether? Leaving aside for a second the fact that now tipping is basically asked everywhere (even at automated machines) - as an European I consider it an extremely stupid trend. If you're "forced" to tip, then it's not a tip anymore. The concept of tipping, at least in Switzerland, has always been to show gratitude for an *exceptional* service. I totally understand the situation in the States, where the tip is basically the employee's wage - but this shouldn't be the case to begin with. It shouldn't be considered rude to not tip the service was good / OK. Employees / waiters should be paid adequate wages regardless of their tips - in the end this is why the food in a restaurant is so expensive (compared to cooking at home).

teaearlgraycold 3y ago
I’ve seen more and more places just include an obligatory 20% service charge. Should that just be priced in? Yes. But I think it’s a baby step in the right direction.
- denysvitali 3y ago
  The thing is that the food price (e.g: menu item) already includes that - so there shouldn't be a tip to begin with. IMHO they should add a mandatory 20% service charge _after_ they discount all of the menu items by 20% - or simply get rid of the tip entirely.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  Yea, just price it in to the goddamn food or service. There is no difference between a $10 burger plus $2 obligatory tip and a $12 burger with no tipping. EDIT: It's not the customer's job to pay a company's payroll.
  - denysvitali 3y ago
    The problem is that they sell a 12$ burger and the 2$ doesn't go to the waiter - instead they ask you to pay 14$ to compensate for this

rufus_foreman 3y ago

I’ll tip if someone really deserves a tipping, if they really put forth the effort, I’ll give them something extra, but I mean this tipping automatically, it’s for the birds.

dmonitor 3y ago

Their "history of tipping" doesn't make a ton of sense. They say it starts with black americans willing to work as waiters for lower wages, since they could expect to be paid with tips. If they took those jobs expecting to be tipped, tipping was already a common practice.

jgwil2 3y ago
I'm guessing they mean that's how it went from optional to obligatory.
blackwateragent 3y ago
I've read this article before that seems to offer some additional information on the topic you raised. [1] > When the practice was brought to the United States in the 19th century, the American public was deeply uncomfortable with it. Many saw tipping as undemocratic and therefore un-American. A powerful anti-tipping movement erupted, fueled by the argument that employers, not customers, should be paying workers. But American restaurants and railway companies fought particularly hard to keep tipping, because it meant they didn’t have to pay recently freed black slaves who were now employed by those industries. Europe eventually did away with tipping. But in America, pressure from powerful corporate interests resulted in a two-tiered wage system for tipped and non-tipped workers, institutionalizing a highly racialized system of economic exclusion. [1] https://www.fordfoundation.org/news-and-stories/stories/american-tipping-is-rooted-in-slavery-and-it-still-hurts-workers-today/ https://www.fordfoundation.org/news-and-stories/stories/amer...

10g1k 3y ago

We don't tip here. The customer pays the employer. The employer pays the employee.

arijun 3y ago

Everyone on here is complaining about the tips, but I don’t see a way to break tipping culture. Are we going to keep ratcheting up tip percentages forever or is there a solution?

MathMonkeyMan 3y ago
I tip servers, bartenders, cab drivers, and my barber. If a machine prompts me for more money, I ignore it. edit: and I tip the food delivery guy
wombat-man 3y ago
Making a restaurant tip free isn't enough. They need to give staff a fixed percentage of the menu price and make it known.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  Is that specific to restaurants, or should staff get a fixed percentage of revenue at every business? If specific to restaurants, why?
denysvitali 3y ago
The problem is that if everyone stops tipping, the only ones being affected are the restaurant staff - not the owners. So the message won't be delivered and might actually cause more harm than it should.
- recursive 3y ago
  If everyone stopped tipping, the restaurant would have to shut down, because the staff would seek alternate employment.
  - denysvitali 3y ago
    Most of the people I know working as a waiter / bartender didn't really have better choices

sigzero 3y ago

I give 20% no matter what.

remram 3y ago
You'd give 20% if your ATM asked?
- dylan604 3y ago
  Tip === Service Fee
dylan604 3y ago
Hi, I just responded to your comment. Tip please

ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago

One of the things about going to Japan, was the service there is phenomenal. Like way above-average. They won't accept tips. In fact, if you leave money on the table, they will chase after you, to give it back. If they did accept tips, I'd make it 50%. I'm pretty sure the reason is that the employees are paid a living wage. A nice side-effect, is that your table doesn't have an "assigned waitstaff." You can ask anyone walking by, for assistance.

lotsofpulp 3y ago
> I'm pretty sure the reason is that the employees are paid a living wage. The reason is cultural. They take pride in their work, regardless of any additional donations. I would even say it is insulting to be left a tip since the assumption, then, is that the worker would not have done the job to the best of their ability without the prospect of a donation.
- makeitdouble 3y ago
  To note, "it's cultural" usually means "they've tried a lot of options and this one stuck as the most pragmatic at a social level" There's just so many reasons to not accept tips. In tipping countries it's seen as a boost for productivity, while in practice it also generates friction within the staff, widens the gap between day and night staff, blurries the client/staff relationship and makes kitchen staff miserable. And just so many additional reasons.
  - em-bee 3y ago
    "they've tried a lot of options and this one stuck as the most pragmatic at a social level" i am very skeptical of that claim. many cultural practices are done because they have always been done that way. and the reasons they evolved is long forgotten
    - makeitdouble 3y ago
      Cultural practices that don't match the current society either have such a low impact that getting rid of them isn't a priority, or they're not long for this world. Sometimes practices can feel completely at odds with one's believes, but if they're still widely adopted it usually means influential parts of society are still relying on them.

civilized 3y ago

Tipping is a significant negative experience that probably causes me to eat out less often. It's increasingly manipulative, extortionate, and most of all pointless. You have no idea what service you paid for or if the person who rendered it actually received the money.

dylan604 3y ago
at least going out to eat and paying a tip is better than staying home paying for the food, paying for a delivery fee, paying for "recovery fees", then finally paying for a tip.

booleandilemma 3y ago

I tip wait staff, hotel staff, uber drivers, barbers, and that's it. We seem to have entered this era of everyone asking for tips, in addition to the online buy-me-a-coffee micro donations culture but sorry, I can't tip everybody. Throw away the tip jars and demand higher wages from your bosses.

jononomo 3y ago
I remember the days when it never crossed anyone's mind to tip a barber.
- eesmith 3y ago
  When was this era? Here is a guidebook for US army officers in 1984, https://archive.org/details/DTIC_ADA166412/page/n49/mode/2up?q=%22tip+a+barber%22 https://archive.org/details/DTIC_ADA166412/page/n49/mode/2up... : > There are certain individuals who perform services for you who should be tipped if you expect to receive good service. ... Tip a barber at least 15 percent; however, as much as 2 dollars may be appropriate in some establishments if multiple services are performed. The Hertz Survival Manual For Traveling Businessman, 1967: > A barber receives a 25¢ tip, and the tip for a shoeshine is 10¢. A 1953 newspaper article on John Wayne's expenses at https://archive.org/details/sedalia-democrat-1953-05-19/page/n11/mode/2up?q=%22tip+a+barber%22 https://archive.org/details/sedalia-democrat-1953-05-19/page... > Superior Judge William R. McKav commented, during the detailing of Wayne's expenses, that a star of his stature would have to tip $2 or "you and I would know what would be said" A 1949 novel, https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.86579/page/n159/mode/2up?q=%22tip+the+barber%22 https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.86579/page/n15... : > “That does not mean that I have to look like a cheap skate,” said Seymour. “You told me to take the kid to the barber: next time take him yourself and see what happens when you don’t tip the barber.” > “I never tip him,” said Sarah. “You’re just a big sport on your sister’s money.” > And in fact, Sarah never tipped the barbers for the children’s haircuts and she disregarded the gestures of contempt and anger which sometimes occurred In 1923, the result of a court case: > On page 188 of the August issue of Office Appliances was printed an account of an experience by A. W. Morf, of the Woodstock Typewriter Company, New York, N. Y. He refused to tip a barber, and the tip was added to his check. The case came into the court of special sessions at New York, and the court fined the barber $25.00. That's not to say everyone tipped, only that over the last century it certainly crossed the mind of quite a few people to tip the barber.

annoyingnoob 3y ago

I worked at a full service gas station in high school and community college. In 4 years of pumping gas, checking oil, checking tires, washing windows, I had exactly one customer that would tip. People did not tip at full service because they were paying extra for the service. We did not expect tips, pay was slightly better than minimum wage. I'd rather pay more than tip. People need to be paid reasonable and calculable wages.

irrational 3y ago

The first time I saw a tablet asking for a tip, I automatically gave one. Afterwards I thought about it and realized that was stupid. I've always declined the tips ever since. Nobody has batted an eye at my declining to tip and half the time the person at the register just says, "It's going to ask you for a tip, just decline it." Even they know it is stupid. But, it had the side effect of making me mad about tipping. I had increased my tips to 20% over the years, but now I've gone back to the old 15%.

Klonoar 3y ago

I'm at the point where I tip at certain experience-style dining outings, some bars, or at my local coffee shop where I know the workers and they're chill to me. Beyond these two experiences it's just gotten absurd. I partly want to blame the processors since they no doubt make more money when the overall charges are higher with tips.

calvinmorrison 3y ago

dools 3y ago

As an Australian I can confidently say that I know exactly how much to tip.

denkmoon 3y ago

So everything just _asks_ for more money now, and people just do that? Crazy.

Footnote7341 3y ago

The biggest myth is that of poor service workers being paid under minimum wage and relying on your tips to survive the reality is that attractive waitresses make up to FIVE TIMES the take home nightly pay of workers in the back in tips. tips are extremely lucrative. there is a reason that wait staff themselves never oppose the current system. Not to mention the legal myths. if they actually received $0 in tips their employer would still be obligated to pay them atleast minimum wage. there is a reason they dont have to.

gustavus 3y ago
> the reality is that attractive waitresses make up to FIVE TIMES the take home nightly pay People constantly make this statement as if it is something wrong. The factor of the matter is that I probably make 20-30% more than ny teams project manager, why? Because I went into computers and had a mind for it and being blessed to be fairly intelligent (at least I'd like to believe so), resulting in me getting paid more for than someone else on my team. Is this wrong? Should I be resentful that somebody was born with better looks than me and that they get compensated more for that in certain sectors than people who are less attractive or fail to take care of their personal appearance? We all have strengths and weaknesses. Some people were blessed to be good with numbers, some to be good with people, why resent people for being good at something, or working to get good at it?
- Footnote7341 3y ago
  what I am resenting is the misinformation false-narratives about workers who get tipped.
- pauldenton 3y ago
  It's wrong because you go to restaurants for food, not to get your coffee refilled and awkward smalltalk. so the tip should go to the person who is making your food, not refilling your coffee and making small talk. And if the tips mean they are making more than double the cooks the cooks time is not being valued and they will likely quit

renewiltord 3y ago

Interesting. I actually tip less now. Now that I have been trained by high tip screen to sometimes "no tip" I have found there is not much pushback. So now I skip tips more often.

jononomo 3y ago

It should be illegal for an iPad to prompt a customer for a tip greater than 15%.

sys_64738 3y ago

Only time I've ever tipped is in a sit down restaurant. I don't pay for deliveries to avoid tips.

preommr 3y ago

My controversial opinion: Everybody should just start charging for tips. For years now, whenever I've pointed out that tipping makes no sense, people hit back with how that's just the way it is or point out how servers would make way less with it. Fine then, everybody should start charging a tip until it's normalized, until people start tipping at counter service, at self-checkouts and wherever else because the people working at those places also work hard and deserve to be rewarded. Also fun is how messed up the tipping system is in Canada: - American style tips (20% minimum) - The percentage increased from 15% (and 10% even earlier) because of inflation even though it's a percentage value and increases with inflation anyway - We (in Ontario) have minimum wage unlike in some states where they make like 2.30 and are expected to make the remaining in tips - We have higher food prices because of things like dairy protectionism (lookup dairy cartel) - We have high living costs in general because of things like our really expensive real estate, and canadian salaries are on average lower than US counterparts. - We have free healthcare compared to America, so that's another expense that servers don't have to pay for (especially if they get their tips in cash and don't report it for tax purposes)

lotsofpulp 3y ago
If people expect an annual bonus from their employer, it is somewhat analogous to expecting a tip.

annica 3y ago

Worse it's used to perpetuate this scheme: "Tipped employees must receive a minimum wage of $2.13 per hour, known as a cash wage. That cash wage is combined with tips to reach the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour. (Many states and localities, listed below, have minimum wages set above the federal rate)." The idea being that you will fit the bill for their labor costs through tips instead of paying it themselves. Somehow the tipping idea perpetuated such that they can and do pay less than minimum wage because of the prevalence of tipping. https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/finance/tipped-minimum-wage https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/finance/tipped-minimum-wa...

armitron 3y ago

I have lived in the US for nearly 20 years (originally from Europe), SF for ~10 but I've since moved to a less progressive state in order to raise my kids in a better environment. I don't tip, ever. I've been pestered with why questions even after I calmly and clearly explained myself, chased down the street by angry waiters, cursed at and even threatened with violence. Still, I don't tip.

Larrikin 3y ago

The answer is more obviously becoming zero. Restaurants exist in every country in the world but somehow in America we have been convinced if you don't pay the extra hidden fee then nobody there can survive. Prices have increased so much on food that there just needs to be a reset. If I'm paying 15 dollars for fast food and then asked to tip on top of that I am fine with that business eventually going out of business.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

methou 3y ago

even uber eats in Japan constantly asking for tips before and after each delivery, while I'm already paying an +30% menu price plus 200~400 Yen delivery yet another ~110 Yen platform fee. I don’t know what’s wrong with them, I ditched all these American apps when there’s a local competitor.

WirelessGigabit 3y ago

$0. I'm not responsible for somebody else's choice not to negotiate a decent wage.

r0ckarong 3y ago

Where is the "Fuck off, pay your staff" button?

nunez 3y ago

The article mentions an important point: customers tip more when given a list of tipping options than when they are not, even when they don't know how much to tip. This tracks with how Starbucks baristas are seeing more tips per week once they rolled out credit card tipping. https://old.reddit.com/r/starbucks/comments/zcl142/credit_card_tipping_hows_it_going/ https://old.reddit.com/r/starbucks/comments/zcl142/credit_ca...

neonate 3y ago

https://archive.ph/X3sgj https://archive.ph/X3sgj

anthonymelchett 3y ago

The correct answer is 0

friend_and_foe 3y ago

Oh, the answer to that is easy. If the person poured you a drink, brought food to your house, parked your car or took your order at a table and brought your food, base is 15%. If they were bad at it, lower, if they went above and beyond, more. Thems the rules, they've always been the rules, that's the social expectation. Anyone brow beating you into some other set of rules is trying to fleece you. They're saying "you're meek and you'll take it." The proper response to someone treating you like that is anger, not shame. You should feel absolutely no tinge of guilt.

Fire-Dragon-DoL 3y ago
I am more strict: good 15,ok 10,bad 0

allarm 3y ago

Easy. If they ask you to tip by default - don’t tip.